I work in EMS and other than doctors/nurses we were maybe the most balls deep in the Covid nonsense era. We also have three kids so that 2 years of childcare and school was…not great. I was even (very tangentially) involved with my boss doing an anti-mandate Fox News hit. The CDC didn’t avail itself very well and there is a ton of evidence for that. However…
The CDC has been around in one form or another since they started doing malaria control in 1942. You know what we don’t have anymore? Malaria. Or small pox. Or polio. Public frustration with the CDC post COVID is justifiable and understandable. MRNA vaccines are maybe the most revolutionary medical discovery of the 21st century, it seems like they should be researched. Measles is a really shitty disease, it should be eradicated. It would be great to reduce our reliance on pesticides and processed food however I’m not sure the government can pull this off and other than the Coke thing RFK hasn’t seemed to make any progress with that sort of stuff anyway. Public health had a rough couple years and individuals and institutions should be held to account but it’s a lot more than COVID.
From inside medicine (and my medical specialty is in public health, which I trained in during the COVID era), there were certainly some true believers in the extreme COVID stuff, but a lot of us just quietly ignored it. We were all sitting together with masks off in the break room in 2020 during the pre-vaccine era.
The thing is, most of us don't have our hands on the levers of power, and if you speak up, you're risking a lot.
And we all knew we were all going to get it because we were swimming in it. Makes wearing a mask in the grocery store less palatable for sure although maybe restaurants were the dumbest. But one had to feel for the cancer patient or transplant recipient who didn’t voluntarily sign up for the shit.
To be fair, the CDC is currently overseeing the unhealthiest developed country in the world. So they haven’t botched just Covid. Was the CDC good at its job and not fully captured in 1950? Probably. presently speaking, I don’t think it has much to hang its hat on anymore. Are vaccines good? Sometimes bad? Sure. Is the Trump admin going about all this in the wrong way? Of course! But I do think we might be at a time where it’s not all that safe anymore to appeal to authority.
It’s the Centers For Disease Control, not the Ministry of Health. Compared to the rest of the world (and considering we have a lot of freedom here to make bad decisions) we do okay with communicable diseases. Our vaccine response to the last pandemic was actually really good relative to the rest of the developed world. If you think we could be healthier as a country we are in danger of touching the third rail of libertarian-y comment boards: the dreaded universal healthcare conversation.
Also okay, if the CDC is a terrible non-functioning bureaucracy what reforms or overhaul should happen? That’s the conversation to have imo. Easy to find flaws, hard to build functioning systems.
Thanks for the healthy, thoughtful response! So strange these days 😂 I think everything you bring up makes sense. I don’t honestly profess to have any good ideas or answers. I’d love to see less money/lobbying in medicine? Better, less political science? I agree, this is the convo to have!
My post was more to say, we stand more to gain to criticize and assume the CDC isn’t that functional anymore. But I could be wrong?! I try not to be a fundamentalist
You started out rather unfair to Linehan, but interestingly you later seemed to come around to understanding why he has “gone crazy” or “insane”. As soon as he saw this trans stuff and self ID stuff started happening he simply tweeted how ridiculous it was and that it was a dangerous threat particularly to women and girls (just as Rowling did) and he expected his left of center colleagues and feminists to be on board with him as it was a no brainer. Instead they attacked him, dropped him and destroyed his career. I don't think it’s insane that if someone saw the dangers of McCarthyism or Stalinism to speak up against it yes possibly to be driven a little off the rails by then being presented as the bad guy. He saw the risks of compelled speech then watched as society supported bearded sex criminals wearing nail polish being incarcerated with women leading to the inevitable results, not to mention a man beating a woman to a pulp boxing at the olympics or appearing in girls changing rooms etc and the sheer compelled speech element towering over it. Like the blacklist in Hollywood Linehan has found himself shunned all because he told the truth and it was the stress of this that destroyed his marriage, so yes maybe this would throw him off track mentally its pretty traumatic to have gone through. Maybe he happens to be an asshole but that doesn't make him wrong, maybe Germaine Greer and Quentin Crisp were assholes but it doesn't mean they were crazy to passionately try to defend women and gay rights as Linehan has, given that at London’s Tavistock clinic they joked about how soon there’d be no gay people because THAT is exactly who, as teenagers, they were putting on a course of self-destruction by telling the parents do you want a live “son” or a dead daughter” scaring the parents with the exaggerated non-existent suicide knowing full well that most suicides were occuring in post operative people upon discovery that this didnt make them all better because it's a mental issue. Anyway, just saying if you are the voice in the wilderness after expecting to be supported and to some degree leading the charge, I can see why this came to dominate his life and quite possibly throw him off balance. All the best.
He literally lost about everything else, so no wonder he got ”too involved” with this one issue. What else was there left for him… I just hope that this will be the straw that breaks the camel’s back, as in the British censor state. But I fear it won’t. The silence on behalf of his fellow comedians is deafening, and incredibly sad.
Absolutely, the silence of the likes of (the otherwise brilliant) Armando Ianucci and Chris Morris is disgusting; their entire background was anti censorship and satirising the media to expose it. The social contagion and censoriousness of the last decade or more could easily have provided so much material for The Day Today and Brass Eye but, like Jon Ronson, they put their finger in the air and saw which way the wind was blowing and that to stand up would or could cost you everything so decided to cave to the insanity; disgraceful. and then there are Jimmy Mulevill and (again the otherwise brilliant) Neil Hannon both of whom have stabbed their friend, women and girls (and gay teenagers awkwardly dealing with adolescence) in his back. Someone once wrote The Crucible for a reason.
The silence from Jon Ronson on the subject of gender was (and is) especially egregious. He bills himself as a brave truth teller who's able to have uncomfortable conversations yet he punts anytime the subject comes near him. Such a disappointment. Yes, as Moynihan said people become rabid on this issue but after you scratch the surface and witness the amount of gaslighting and censorship it's hard to come back from it.
No I'm not mixing them up, they are two different people and both have indicated that Richard Ayoade is on the correct common sense side of these issues.
Holy cow. I never really believed the charges of Wikipedia being completely "captured" before and have been more than happy to give them an annual $5 donation, but Linehan's Wiki refers to him as an "anti-transgender activist" in the first sentence of his page. The proof? He's skeptical of kids getting gender affirming care and believes adults with gender dysphoria should get the help and support they need.
Unfortunately the people who are online enough to be active Wikipedia contributors also tend to be very online in other ways. See also the reporting on the recent anti-Israel bias on Wikipedia.
While not fatal, I gotta admit my ardour for the Fifth was mildly dampened by how thoroughly, and with atypical cowardice, you three shat the bed on the biggest, wildest, most coercive, endorsed and enforced batshittery of the modern age.
A million Jon Ronson's aren't worth one of Linehan's flop sweats.
Who, yes, was rendered obsessive and incoherent on this.
Which is the only sane response to a world whistling by the castration of children, rapists raping away in Women's Prisons and the Top-Down/All Sides bombardment insuring it was, at best; social/career suicide, at worst; criminal and physically dangerous to name reality.
I sometimes sensed Kmele had more to say on this and was biting his tongue. I would have liked to hear it
It seemed the Fifth ranked playing cool above a single, sober minute of factual calling bullshit. This tack was glaring when so much excellent critique was afforded subjects not a fraction as fascinating or exhibiting a fraction of this one's brutal lockstep. And it nearly won. But for a few thousand stubborn women well past giving a fuck and handful of embarrassing jerks.
Still love you guys, but the performatively louche nonchalance, esp. from M, was a cold shower. And no, I had zero desire for you to discuss ad nauseam al la Yang or Linehan. But a single hilarious Terf guest like Julie Bindle or Jane Clare Jones (Sarah H./Meghan D are also good on this without being monomaniacal) would have broadened your understanding, entertained and challenged you articulately and intellectually. And a single instance of calling bullshit instead of evading with jokes would have upheld the consistency of Fifth Column's claim. Now, this fight gets ceded to the whackos, mealy mouthed people pleasers timidly dip a toe in now that the water's warm, and the grim backlash gathers.
It didn't have to be this way, had a broader mass of braver voices been in the vanguard.
A previously imperfect but functioning social contract was exploded. The most incredible lie entertained, enforced with sweeping harm, including to trans people. The scandal of a lifetime only a jerk or Bitch would touch.
I get it, rubbernecking is gross. And totally uncool. But the opposite? Looking away, while commonplace, historically turns out to be the actually crazy thing.
I found the idea that they didn’t really get into the subject because it was too hard to have the conversation, or not worth it (I forget the exact construction) really dishonest. I’ve been closely following this issue for about 8 years over here on Terf Island. There is no shortage of people on the “gender critical” side who speak logically, calmly and rationally on this issue and - thank goodness - have done so with dogged persistence, despite the cowardice of the entire mainstream - and not so mainstream - media. Far more convincing as a reason for the avoidance is the revelation that they know people with trans kids.
Quite frankly, Graham Linehan is a hero, even if you find his ardour lacking in taste.
Completely agree. They are indeed being dishonest. There are so many people the Fifth guys could have on who would be thorough, rational and calm. They, just like so many of us, don't want to offend their friends with trans kids. Maybe it's time to take that risk.
Completely agree. I too found the "(sophisticated yawn) I just can't be bothered to get animated about this" really disingenuous.
Fine. I totally recommend staying calm and not getting animated. Difficult, as it's a crazy-making subject once you grasp the human rights abuses committed.. Linehan became obsessive to his own destruction, it's true. I wouldn't recommend or model his behaviour. It was also a momentous sacrifice on his part albeit often made offensively and incoherently (You can see in his physical presentation and ramblings, which I find difficult to listen to, that he has been mentally overwhelmed by having the tables flipped for pointing at the horrific true thing) Those who mock him show their ignorance or defensiveness of what is inherently indefensible. I've lost so much respect and trust for friends and family on this, it breaks something inside of you.
Thousands of kids in America had double mastectomies and/or genital surgeries done in the name of gender ideology. And these are only the ones that insurance companies reported. And if you pointed out that there is NO good evidence for this treatment, you could lose your job.
How is caring about this a derangement?? Jesus Fucking Christ.
Linehan lost almost everything standing up against this.
I always figured that the Fifth guys were avoiding it for personal reasons; that it cut too close to home. Which I totally get, and respect.
But heroic it was not. I used to be a Jon Ronson fan, but his cowardice on this issue made me lose a lot of respect for him. He is that thing no man should be, which is a pussy.
Your opening sentence "Thousands of kids in America had double mastectomies and/or genital surgeries done in the name of gender ideology" is confusing. Can you present evidence of any sort that any treatments children receive are driven by an ideology over actual individual patient care? Yes, there are people who are treated for whom outcomes didn't meet expectations but this is true across every medical intervention that exists. Medicine is a practice meaning that it's something that's constantly evolving. When you say that "gender ideology" is the reason for surgical intervention for a trans person, are you suggesting that there's some secret agreement among those in the medical community conspiring to turn every kid trans and mutilate their bodies? To what end?
Medicine evolves through research and clinical trials. Not by throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks. Medicine is evidenced based.
There’s no secret agreement! There doesn’t need to be anything secret about it. Endocrine clinics and surgeons make a lot of money doing cosmetic shit to mentally ill kids and teens. The WPATH guidelines gave them cover. There have been a lot of useful idiots swept up in this. Not least those who somehow fell for the framing of this as a gay rights issue.
The very last people who will admit this has all been a terrible mistake are parents who were led to believe this was the right thing for their kids. The whole thing is really, really sad.
Do you have any $$ figures around this massive cash grab? We're talking about a total population that's in the thousands out of hundreds of millions. I don't see how this could be such a lucrative business but am open to your research on this if you have some.
The outsized attention that the Christian Right and its media allies (Fox News, Megyn Kelly, even TFP on this issue) bring to this issue make it seem as though trans kids are everywhere and schools are turning kids gay/trans everyday and shuffling them off to major surgery without parental knowledge. Just the whole narrative that kids are being rushed into surgery so they don't commit suicide is completely false. It's hysteria and nowhere grounded in reality.
Do you know any trans people?
What's sad is doing the work of the Christian fundamentalist and right wing media spreading lies about the actual reality of the challenges that trans people and children face in the world. This is a version of the Satanic panic in the 80's.
Also, you all need to retire the whole "Do you even know trans people?" Yes; for many if not most of us, it is precisely due to our interactions with trans people that we've come to oir positions. Have YOU met yourselves lately? Jesus.
I find that Sarah Haider is particularly thoughtful and clearheaded about this topic, in spite of how strongly she feels about it. I’ve hoped the guys would have her back on since I listened to her one-on-one with Kmele recorded years ago.
She's ferociously intelligent, so that helps. But even she admits to being a single issue voter on not carving into the bodies, minds and futures of kids, and how it can become an obsession once you realize what's happening.
Interesting, because I have the exact opposite view. There is no shortage of voices in the "heterodox" community that frequently talk about trans issues and I have always appreciated the Fifth guys for giving me a reprieve from listening to it constantly. I don't view the fellas as required to be part of the vanguard or heroes regarding every single controversial topic in the world, they are free to talk about whatever the hell they want and I will always be grateful if they continue to stick to that philosophy. I also think it is unfair to accuse them of completely ignoring the issue just because it doesn't measure up to your standards, they have definitely talked about it more than you are suggesting.
See, I agree with this in part too. As I said: I have zero wish for the gents to discuss Trans ad nauseaum. The subject can become like Tourette’s for people. It genuinely breaks sensitive brains, and, again, this is a genuinely natural response to perhaps the worst scandal in history being endorsed by friends and loved ones.
I too tuned into the Fifth for reprieve from the brain-breaking.
If your position is, “we’re not going to talk about this because everyone else does.” Brava. I’m here for that. It was more the hand-waving away I found surprising. It’s not simply some annoying blip in the cultural landscape. I wish it were myself.
My guess would be that they probably don't consider it "the worst scandal in history" like you do. If they felt that way, I'm sure it would have been a more frequent topic. It's clearly an issue you are very passionate about, and they appear not to be, which is perfectly ok in my opinion and I completely understand why you may disagree.
Passion isn’t the feeling. It’s shock and dismay at almost everything everything previously held. As in, “What-the-Fuck-Just-Happened?!”
The blackest of pills, which Sarah Haider rightly describes as the single greatest issue able to transform her outlook on the world.
For the third time; I’m ruefully glad the boys weren’t consumed by. Michael has said he can’t even engage with Anti-Israel fanatics anymore due to their total derangement and detachment from reality, and I agree with that assessment. I’m just surprised by the extent to which they appear to have underestimated an even crazier example here.
I think when Kmele went on with Meghan and Sarah, they asked him why he didn't touch the gender stuff and he gave a similar answer as to here.
I think they're correct in this episode in saying that if you are (perhaps correctly) intimidated out of saying the truth, you can just keep your mouth shut. Many people did that, which makes the people that actively participated in the nonsense look bad.
From a medical perspective, I think there's a perverse dynamic in play with regards to expertise. Any doctor that is considered an "expert" in trans medicine is going to be one who is actively engaged in doing it, and thus has an incentive not to listen to any criticism of it. Anyone who isn't an expert in that specific area is going to be shouted down for that reason, in addition to the usual accusations of bigotry. And normally, that's reasonable. I am not an expert in endocrinology or adolescent mental health, so I feel uncomfortable commenting on clinical practice in this area. But it would also be fair to say that sometimes things get so out of hand that the non-experts need to weigh in.
Oh for God's sake. More bullshit and virtue signalling from Fianna FAIL and Fine Gall. They should know that Ireland isn't England. The vast majority of people have migrants in their famies all over the world. We'd never be so hypocritical and disrespectful to the memories of our forefathers who dug canals and built railways as to use our flag as a symbol of intimidation against migrants. I for one welcome immigrants, as I have been welcomed on my travels. I'm proud Ireland has become a successful country people want to come to, rather than than the shithole my aunts, uncles and cousins left in the 80's. Cmon Ireland🇮🇪!!! Tiocfaidh ár lá!!🇮🇪
If you want to see two tiers of allowable/acceptable speech in the UK, do a quick Twitter search of Manor Solomon, an Israeli soccer player who played for Tottenham Hotspur (a team with such deep Jewish roots fans called themselves “Proper Yids”). Whenever the team posted anything on social media that mentioned him, the comments would be filled with what I would describe as at least xenophobic and bordering on anti semitic, and yet the club never acknowledged it. Contrast that to when Mathys Tel, another Spurs player, was the target of racist social media posts and club immediately announced their “disgust” at the racist posts. Keep in mind, the racist posts about Tel were because he played poorly and aren’t persistent, while Solomon’s are/were because he’s Israeli. I don’t even recall seeing any racist posts on Twitter aimed at Tel, but under a lot of Spurs posts you will likely find what could be considered xenophobic and anti semitic posts aimed at Manor Solomon.
I live on the outskirts of a very lefty city in the UK, where pride flags and Palestine flags are everywhere. my personal view is that English culture is mostly minding your own business and keeping opinions to yourself. In the absence of that, I love seeing the uk / English flag out. Either everyone gets to put up flags or no one does and if you believe in free speech then that’s for everyone…
When I was running a SuperPAC we had a meeting with her to see if we would want to support her in the primary - she was the only candidate who was like "no that's ok, I'm gonna win, but do you guys want me to help make your Insta page better? I'm really good at social media" 😂
I was surprised, she looks cute in her official congress photo. And patriotic with the flag in the background, despite her being the type (of leftist) that hates America.
The UK is such a deeply unserious cucked country at this point. It seems like they’re kinda already cooked because if you talk about what’s wrong with it you go to jail. In 30 years it will be majority Muslim and trans
I work in EMS and other than doctors/nurses we were maybe the most balls deep in the Covid nonsense era. We also have three kids so that 2 years of childcare and school was…not great. I was even (very tangentially) involved with my boss doing an anti-mandate Fox News hit. The CDC didn’t avail itself very well and there is a ton of evidence for that. However…
The CDC has been around in one form or another since they started doing malaria control in 1942. You know what we don’t have anymore? Malaria. Or small pox. Or polio. Public frustration with the CDC post COVID is justifiable and understandable. MRNA vaccines are maybe the most revolutionary medical discovery of the 21st century, it seems like they should be researched. Measles is a really shitty disease, it should be eradicated. It would be great to reduce our reliance on pesticides and processed food however I’m not sure the government can pull this off and other than the Coke thing RFK hasn’t seemed to make any progress with that sort of stuff anyway. Public health had a rough couple years and individuals and institutions should be held to account but it’s a lot more than COVID.
From inside medicine (and my medical specialty is in public health, which I trained in during the COVID era), there were certainly some true believers in the extreme COVID stuff, but a lot of us just quietly ignored it. We were all sitting together with masks off in the break room in 2020 during the pre-vaccine era.
The thing is, most of us don't have our hands on the levers of power, and if you speak up, you're risking a lot.
And we all knew we were all going to get it because we were swimming in it. Makes wearing a mask in the grocery store less palatable for sure although maybe restaurants were the dumbest. But one had to feel for the cancer patient or transplant recipient who didn’t voluntarily sign up for the shit.
My concern was the kids, and pediatrics is the branch of medicine that really seemed to go insane.
To be fair, the CDC is currently overseeing the unhealthiest developed country in the world. So they haven’t botched just Covid. Was the CDC good at its job and not fully captured in 1950? Probably. presently speaking, I don’t think it has much to hang its hat on anymore. Are vaccines good? Sometimes bad? Sure. Is the Trump admin going about all this in the wrong way? Of course! But I do think we might be at a time where it’s not all that safe anymore to appeal to authority.
It’s the Centers For Disease Control, not the Ministry of Health. Compared to the rest of the world (and considering we have a lot of freedom here to make bad decisions) we do okay with communicable diseases. Our vaccine response to the last pandemic was actually really good relative to the rest of the developed world. If you think we could be healthier as a country we are in danger of touching the third rail of libertarian-y comment boards: the dreaded universal healthcare conversation.
Also okay, if the CDC is a terrible non-functioning bureaucracy what reforms or overhaul should happen? That’s the conversation to have imo. Easy to find flaws, hard to build functioning systems.
Thanks for the healthy, thoughtful response! So strange these days 😂 I think everything you bring up makes sense. I don’t honestly profess to have any good ideas or answers. I’d love to see less money/lobbying in medicine? Better, less political science? I agree, this is the convo to have!
My post was more to say, we stand more to gain to criticize and assume the CDC isn’t that functional anymore. But I could be wrong?! I try not to be a fundamentalist
Someday maybe see you at one of these things these guys do. Haven’t had a chance yet but who knows!
Heck yeah! Maybe!
You started out rather unfair to Linehan, but interestingly you later seemed to come around to understanding why he has “gone crazy” or “insane”. As soon as he saw this trans stuff and self ID stuff started happening he simply tweeted how ridiculous it was and that it was a dangerous threat particularly to women and girls (just as Rowling did) and he expected his left of center colleagues and feminists to be on board with him as it was a no brainer. Instead they attacked him, dropped him and destroyed his career. I don't think it’s insane that if someone saw the dangers of McCarthyism or Stalinism to speak up against it yes possibly to be driven a little off the rails by then being presented as the bad guy. He saw the risks of compelled speech then watched as society supported bearded sex criminals wearing nail polish being incarcerated with women leading to the inevitable results, not to mention a man beating a woman to a pulp boxing at the olympics or appearing in girls changing rooms etc and the sheer compelled speech element towering over it. Like the blacklist in Hollywood Linehan has found himself shunned all because he told the truth and it was the stress of this that destroyed his marriage, so yes maybe this would throw him off track mentally its pretty traumatic to have gone through. Maybe he happens to be an asshole but that doesn't make him wrong, maybe Germaine Greer and Quentin Crisp were assholes but it doesn't mean they were crazy to passionately try to defend women and gay rights as Linehan has, given that at London’s Tavistock clinic they joked about how soon there’d be no gay people because THAT is exactly who, as teenagers, they were putting on a course of self-destruction by telling the parents do you want a live “son” or a dead daughter” scaring the parents with the exaggerated non-existent suicide knowing full well that most suicides were occuring in post operative people upon discovery that this didnt make them all better because it's a mental issue. Anyway, just saying if you are the voice in the wilderness after expecting to be supported and to some degree leading the charge, I can see why this came to dominate his life and quite possibly throw him off balance. All the best.
He literally lost about everything else, so no wonder he got ”too involved” with this one issue. What else was there left for him… I just hope that this will be the straw that breaks the camel’s back, as in the British censor state. But I fear it won’t. The silence on behalf of his fellow comedians is deafening, and incredibly sad.
Absolutely, the silence of the likes of (the otherwise brilliant) Armando Ianucci and Chris Morris is disgusting; their entire background was anti censorship and satirising the media to expose it. The social contagion and censoriousness of the last decade or more could easily have provided so much material for The Day Today and Brass Eye but, like Jon Ronson, they put their finger in the air and saw which way the wind was blowing and that to stand up would or could cost you everything so decided to cave to the insanity; disgraceful. and then there are Jimmy Mulevill and (again the otherwise brilliant) Neil Hannon both of whom have stabbed their friend, women and girls (and gay teenagers awkwardly dealing with adolescence) in his back. Someone once wrote The Crucible for a reason.
The silence from Jon Ronson on the subject of gender was (and is) especially egregious. He bills himself as a brave truth teller who's able to have uncomfortable conversations yet he punts anytime the subject comes near him. Such a disappointment. Yes, as Moynihan said people become rabid on this issue but after you scratch the surface and witness the amount of gaslighting and censorship it's hard to come back from it.
His story about the lesbian music festival in “Things Fell Apart” was rather dishonest by omission.
Absolutely!
Richard Ayoade stuck up for him, as I recall.
Yes I think Linehan has implied that as has Ayoade's brother in law
No I'm not mixing them up, they are two different people and both have indicated that Richard Ayoade is on the correct common sense side of these issues.
One of many reasons I love Richard Ayoade. My understanding is that Chris O’Dowd has refused to give in to the mob as well.
That is nice to hear.
Thank you for writing that. This is exactly how I see it too.
Holy cow. I never really believed the charges of Wikipedia being completely "captured" before and have been more than happy to give them an annual $5 donation, but Linehan's Wiki refers to him as an "anti-transgender activist" in the first sentence of his page. The proof? He's skeptical of kids getting gender affirming care and believes adults with gender dysphoria should get the help and support they need.
Gender madness has left a massive trail of social destruction in its wake.
Check out Jesse Singal’s wiki and you’ll want a refund on those donations
Unfortunately the people who are online enough to be active Wikipedia contributors also tend to be very online in other ways. See also the reporting on the recent anti-Israel bias on Wikipedia.
Michael has never been more wrong about anything than about the quality of the early, drunken episodes. Those were the best.
Before people sent them money they sent them booze to keep the show running.
Much of that booze still exists in Chinatown, and will soon be at least half-ported over to the new studio!
That you still have so much just proves you guys aren't drinking enough.
It boarders on alcohol abuse
Drunken early Ben Dreyfuss episodes is peak Fif
Where’s… the video
Practice-running.
Okay, glad it wasn't just me. Thought I was nuts.
Same
While not fatal, I gotta admit my ardour for the Fifth was mildly dampened by how thoroughly, and with atypical cowardice, you three shat the bed on the biggest, wildest, most coercive, endorsed and enforced batshittery of the modern age.
A million Jon Ronson's aren't worth one of Linehan's flop sweats.
Who, yes, was rendered obsessive and incoherent on this.
Which is the only sane response to a world whistling by the castration of children, rapists raping away in Women's Prisons and the Top-Down/All Sides bombardment insuring it was, at best; social/career suicide, at worst; criminal and physically dangerous to name reality.
I sometimes sensed Kmele had more to say on this and was biting his tongue. I would have liked to hear it
It seemed the Fifth ranked playing cool above a single, sober minute of factual calling bullshit. This tack was glaring when so much excellent critique was afforded subjects not a fraction as fascinating or exhibiting a fraction of this one's brutal lockstep. And it nearly won. But for a few thousand stubborn women well past giving a fuck and handful of embarrassing jerks.
Still love you guys, but the performatively louche nonchalance, esp. from M, was a cold shower. And no, I had zero desire for you to discuss ad nauseam al la Yang or Linehan. But a single hilarious Terf guest like Julie Bindle or Jane Clare Jones (Sarah H./Meghan D are also good on this without being monomaniacal) would have broadened your understanding, entertained and challenged you articulately and intellectually. And a single instance of calling bullshit instead of evading with jokes would have upheld the consistency of Fifth Column's claim. Now, this fight gets ceded to the whackos, mealy mouthed people pleasers timidly dip a toe in now that the water's warm, and the grim backlash gathers.
It didn't have to be this way, had a broader mass of braver voices been in the vanguard.
A previously imperfect but functioning social contract was exploded. The most incredible lie entertained, enforced with sweeping harm, including to trans people. The scandal of a lifetime only a jerk or Bitch would touch.
I get it, rubbernecking is gross. And totally uncool. But the opposite? Looking away, while commonplace, historically turns out to be the actually crazy thing.
I found the idea that they didn’t really get into the subject because it was too hard to have the conversation, or not worth it (I forget the exact construction) really dishonest. I’ve been closely following this issue for about 8 years over here on Terf Island. There is no shortage of people on the “gender critical” side who speak logically, calmly and rationally on this issue and - thank goodness - have done so with dogged persistence, despite the cowardice of the entire mainstream - and not so mainstream - media. Far more convincing as a reason for the avoidance is the revelation that they know people with trans kids.
Quite frankly, Graham Linehan is a hero, even if you find his ardour lacking in taste.
Completely agree. They are indeed being dishonest. There are so many people the Fifth guys could have on who would be thorough, rational and calm. They, just like so many of us, don't want to offend their friends with trans kids. Maybe it's time to take that risk.
Completely agree. I too found the "(sophisticated yawn) I just can't be bothered to get animated about this" really disingenuous.
Fine. I totally recommend staying calm and not getting animated. Difficult, as it's a crazy-making subject once you grasp the human rights abuses committed.. Linehan became obsessive to his own destruction, it's true. I wouldn't recommend or model his behaviour. It was also a momentous sacrifice on his part albeit often made offensively and incoherently (You can see in his physical presentation and ramblings, which I find difficult to listen to, that he has been mentally overwhelmed by having the tables flipped for pointing at the horrific true thing) Those who mock him show their ignorance or defensiveness of what is inherently indefensible. I've lost so much respect and trust for friends and family on this, it breaks something inside of you.
I feel this so much!
Thousands of kids in America had double mastectomies and/or genital surgeries done in the name of gender ideology. And these are only the ones that insurance companies reported. And if you pointed out that there is NO good evidence for this treatment, you could lose your job.
How is caring about this a derangement?? Jesus Fucking Christ.
Linehan lost almost everything standing up against this.
I always figured that the Fifth guys were avoiding it for personal reasons; that it cut too close to home. Which I totally get, and respect.
But heroic it was not. I used to be a Jon Ronson fan, but his cowardice on this issue made me lose a lot of respect for him. He is that thing no man should be, which is a pussy.
Your opening sentence "Thousands of kids in America had double mastectomies and/or genital surgeries done in the name of gender ideology" is confusing. Can you present evidence of any sort that any treatments children receive are driven by an ideology over actual individual patient care? Yes, there are people who are treated for whom outcomes didn't meet expectations but this is true across every medical intervention that exists. Medicine is a practice meaning that it's something that's constantly evolving. When you say that "gender ideology" is the reason for surgical intervention for a trans person, are you suggesting that there's some secret agreement among those in the medical community conspiring to turn every kid trans and mutilate their bodies? To what end?
Medicine evolves through research and clinical trials. Not by throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks. Medicine is evidenced based.
There’s no secret agreement! There doesn’t need to be anything secret about it. Endocrine clinics and surgeons make a lot of money doing cosmetic shit to mentally ill kids and teens. The WPATH guidelines gave them cover. There have been a lot of useful idiots swept up in this. Not least those who somehow fell for the framing of this as a gay rights issue.
The very last people who will admit this has all been a terrible mistake are parents who were led to believe this was the right thing for their kids. The whole thing is really, really sad.
Do you have any $$ figures around this massive cash grab? We're talking about a total population that's in the thousands out of hundreds of millions. I don't see how this could be such a lucrative business but am open to your research on this if you have some.
The outsized attention that the Christian Right and its media allies (Fox News, Megyn Kelly, even TFP on this issue) bring to this issue make it seem as though trans kids are everywhere and schools are turning kids gay/trans everyday and shuffling them off to major surgery without parental knowledge. Just the whole narrative that kids are being rushed into surgery so they don't commit suicide is completely false. It's hysteria and nowhere grounded in reality.
Do you know any trans people?
What's sad is doing the work of the Christian fundamentalist and right wing media spreading lies about the actual reality of the challenges that trans people and children face in the world. This is a version of the Satanic panic in the 80's.
Also, you all need to retire the whole "Do you even know trans people?" Yes; for many if not most of us, it is precisely due to our interactions with trans people that we've come to oir positions. Have YOU met yourselves lately? Jesus.
Haha! Ok, I get it now. You're the one not being serious. It's kinda funny but not "laugh out loud" funny.
There are hospital admins on tape discussing how lucrative the 'treatments' are (eg the Vanderbilt tapes). Please at least try to be serious.
In what way am I not being serious? I didn't make the initial claim and only asked for actual evidence to support said claim.
What are the details of the $$ involved? If outcomes for patients are 100% negative, how does this business model survive?
Yes! Thank you. My exact same thoughts!
I find that Sarah Haider is particularly thoughtful and clearheaded about this topic, in spite of how strongly she feels about it. I’ve hoped the guys would have her back on since I listened to her one-on-one with Kmele recorded years ago.
She's ferociously intelligent, so that helps. But even she admits to being a single issue voter on not carving into the bodies, minds and futures of kids, and how it can become an obsession once you realize what's happening.
Interesting, because I have the exact opposite view. There is no shortage of voices in the "heterodox" community that frequently talk about trans issues and I have always appreciated the Fifth guys for giving me a reprieve from listening to it constantly. I don't view the fellas as required to be part of the vanguard or heroes regarding every single controversial topic in the world, they are free to talk about whatever the hell they want and I will always be grateful if they continue to stick to that philosophy. I also think it is unfair to accuse them of completely ignoring the issue just because it doesn't measure up to your standards, they have definitely talked about it more than you are suggesting.
See, I agree with this in part too. As I said: I have zero wish for the gents to discuss Trans ad nauseaum. The subject can become like Tourette’s for people. It genuinely breaks sensitive brains, and, again, this is a genuinely natural response to perhaps the worst scandal in history being endorsed by friends and loved ones.
I too tuned into the Fifth for reprieve from the brain-breaking.
If your position is, “we’re not going to talk about this because everyone else does.” Brava. I’m here for that. It was more the hand-waving away I found surprising. It’s not simply some annoying blip in the cultural landscape. I wish it were myself.
My guess would be that they probably don't consider it "the worst scandal in history" like you do. If they felt that way, I'm sure it would have been a more frequent topic. It's clearly an issue you are very passionate about, and they appear not to be, which is perfectly ok in my opinion and I completely understand why you may disagree.
Passion isn’t the feeling. It’s shock and dismay at almost everything everything previously held. As in, “What-the-Fuck-Just-Happened?!”
The blackest of pills, which Sarah Haider rightly describes as the single greatest issue able to transform her outlook on the world.
For the third time; I’m ruefully glad the boys weren’t consumed by. Michael has said he can’t even engage with Anti-Israel fanatics anymore due to their total derangement and detachment from reality, and I agree with that assessment. I’m just surprised by the extent to which they appear to have underestimated an even crazier example here.
Wow. This is everything I wish to express - especially Moynihan’s nonchalance. You’ve nailed it.
100%
I think when Kmele went on with Meghan and Sarah, they asked him why he didn't touch the gender stuff and he gave a similar answer as to here.
I think they're correct in this episode in saying that if you are (perhaps correctly) intimidated out of saying the truth, you can just keep your mouth shut. Many people did that, which makes the people that actively participated in the nonsense look bad.
From a medical perspective, I think there's a perverse dynamic in play with regards to expertise. Any doctor that is considered an "expert" in trans medicine is going to be one who is actively engaged in doing it, and thus has an incentive not to listen to any criticism of it. Anyone who isn't an expert in that specific area is going to be shouted down for that reason, in addition to the usual accusations of bigotry. And normally, that's reasonable. I am not an expert in endocrinology or adolescent mental health, so I feel uncomfortable commenting on clinical practice in this area. But it would also be fair to say that sometimes things get so out of hand that the non-experts need to weigh in.
I think Kmele is more disturbed by clear repercussions, bad science and the coercive nature than the other two.
Seems to me Graham Linehan was just being brave and calling bullshit. And he suffered horrible consequences for it. He is still right.
In Ireland, people are getting shit for flying the tricolor 🇮🇪, being accused of intimidation. This isn’t going to end well.
Are they? Where?
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/politics/arid-41699276.html
Oh for God's sake. More bullshit and virtue signalling from Fianna FAIL and Fine Gall. They should know that Ireland isn't England. The vast majority of people have migrants in their famies all over the world. We'd never be so hypocritical and disrespectful to the memories of our forefathers who dug canals and built railways as to use our flag as a symbol of intimidation against migrants. I for one welcome immigrants, as I have been welcomed on my travels. I'm proud Ireland has become a successful country people want to come to, rather than than the shithole my aunts, uncles and cousins left in the 80's. Cmon Ireland🇮🇪!!! Tiocfaidh ár lá!!🇮🇪
If you want to see two tiers of allowable/acceptable speech in the UK, do a quick Twitter search of Manor Solomon, an Israeli soccer player who played for Tottenham Hotspur (a team with such deep Jewish roots fans called themselves “Proper Yids”). Whenever the team posted anything on social media that mentioned him, the comments would be filled with what I would describe as at least xenophobic and bordering on anti semitic, and yet the club never acknowledged it. Contrast that to when Mathys Tel, another Spurs player, was the target of racist social media posts and club immediately announced their “disgust” at the racist posts. Keep in mind, the racist posts about Tel were because he played poorly and aren’t persistent, while Solomon’s are/were because he’s Israeli. I don’t even recall seeing any racist posts on Twitter aimed at Tel, but under a lot of Spurs posts you will likely find what could be considered xenophobic and anti semitic posts aimed at Manor Solomon.
Welch is is right - it’s “pa-jam-ah” not “pa-jah-mah” - how else would you be able to say “pajama-jammy-jam” and not sound like a lunatic?
It's closer to pa jah mah in the original Hindi!
I live on the outskirts of a very lefty city in the UK, where pride flags and Palestine flags are everywhere. my personal view is that English culture is mostly minding your own business and keeping opinions to yourself. In the absence of that, I love seeing the uk / English flag out. Either everyone gets to put up flags or no one does and if you believe in free speech then that’s for everyone…
Regarding the word “survivor,” shoutout to an all-time classic Curb Your Enthusiasm scene: https://youtu.be/0KqDHFYcel8
That’s what I was thinking the entire time Moynihan was talking about survivors.
I recommend a "crazy hotties of Congress" series - Mace, Luna, Ocasio-Cortez, and any others who show the absolute truth of the crazy/hot correlation.
Did you listen to the Rogan episode featuring Luna? Holy shit, she believes some batshit stuff. Looks good in a swimsuit, though.
When I was running a SuperPAC we had a meeting with her to see if we would want to support her in the primary - she was the only candidate who was like "no that's ok, I'm gonna win, but do you guys want me to help make your Insta page better? I'm really good at social media" 😂
I'd even throw in whatshername from Texas, The Code Switch Kid
I was surprised, she looks cute in her official congress photo. And patriotic with the flag in the background, despite her being the type (of leftist) that hates America.
If we can include ex-members of Congress, Madison Cawthorn can be on there too.
So you're telling me Kmele had sex with his crew in front of Jane Goodall?
The UK is such a deeply unserious cucked country at this point. It seems like they’re kinda already cooked because if you talk about what’s wrong with it you go to jail. In 30 years it will be majority Muslim and trans
England is insane. The st George's cross is genuinely considered a symbol of white supremacy by my cousin-law's.