Watch now | Talking A Dream Deferred: Jesse Jackson and the Fight for Black Political Power, Caribbean identity in American life, BLM, and making messy debates watchable
Man, we need more people like her. She's amazing. Clearly the political and cultural landscape is changing. Thank God. Every year we get further away from 2020 feels that much more sane.
Can't wait to listen. I hope for more illuminating exchanges like there were on the recent episode with Shadi Hamid. In that episode, I particularly liked that MM did a great job exploring some of the issues surrounding Israel/Hamas/Palestine/October 7. He did so respectfully and in a way that genuinely sought to understand Shadi's perspective. And Shadi offered it clearly and with reciprocal respect.
Same here. I personally quite like hearing many different perspectives and viewpoints, not just trying to have my priors confirmed. That would be so very dull.
It's extremely tone-deaf in the BLM era to say that only black identitarianism carries a stigma. White identity does too, and it should. I am white, but my whiteness is not a point of pride and it shouldn’t be. I wonder if she has never once been exposed to this basic point or if she just tunes it out.
The through line between the pod with Shadi and Abby Phillips is that once you start getting to specific questions, Shadi with Gaza/Israel and Abby with race, the responses become very surface level and shows a clear lack of deep thinking about an issue. The answers given are of soundbite nature and a whiff of 'these are the things I'm supposed to say if I'm on this side of the issue' answers.
It's a shame these vague responses came at the end of both pods as I would have loved for them to be probed for specifics and implications.
Yes, both guests have the real gift of gab and seem to have gotten the post-2024 message of “Don't sound deranged.” Phillip talking about her childhood, island culture, family views towards the American black community is really quite engaging. But I get the impression that while she has learned to sound more moderate and personable, her ideas are still the generic progressive identity-infused standard.
“I want to apologize for appearing on The Fifth Column podcast…I do not associate with any of these views and/or stereotypical voices/accents from Michael Moynihan”
Very impressed with her and learned a bit about Jesse Jackson. It was interesting that her and Kmele have a lot of similarities but came to view race in a very different way.
35:20 Unfortunately, Abby Phillip is mistaken about the origin of Angostura Aromatic Bitters, which are named for the town of Angostura, Venezuela where they were invented. Angostura Bitters are made in Port of Spain, Trinidad today.
I found Abby much more agreeable and sensible than I expected.
But I also think she buys into the exaggerations of present-day racism way too much.
I found her rationalization of BLM to be a bit naive. Just because some of the original folks that introduced it didn't want it to be an exclusive sentiment doesn't mean a whole bunch of others felt the same way.
But an excellent convo. And her book does sound interesting.
I'll have to think about the ending salvo on BLM. I do believe it was exclusionary based on how it was largely promoted and reported on.
Call it a cheap retort at the time, but as "all lives matter" met this moment, I recall the dominant response was to characterize "all lives matter" as reactionary, racist, and typifying the white supremacist mentality of America. I do not recall anyone in a position of any prominence in the movement saying "absolutely, and we welcome everyone to reflect on our message and we demand the same level of dignity and equality" culturally that the "I AM A MAN" credo asserted at the time.
In this way, it is similar to the trans rights movement, both in what is being asserted in its promotion and reporting. Likewise, trans rights activism in its dominant form has demanded more than the dignity and equalitu of the "I AM A MAN" credo. (There's a joke to be made here but I would never pick low hanging fruit...)
What I wonder for thoughtful people like Abby with respect to the subject of "identity" is, yes, the ever present risk of motte and bailey in modern political activism, but also the risk that some of the, shall we say, charitable interpretations thoughtful people like her make for these movements wont ultimately bring about a reasonable, nuanced outcome. Hers and people like her - their charity is defeated almost immediately because the radical elements double down. The classic example is "well they dont actually mean defund the police literally" and the radical front of the movement says "oh yes the fuck we do."
Likewise, the widely parroted "a black trans woman threw the first brick at Stonewall" is perhaps the most apropos example of this feverish desire to not only re-write every piece of history to favor the identity group, but to flatten history considerably. To demand history be changed, or else you are on the side of the oppressor, etc. This is the exact kind of myth making and bad history that Abby (and all of us should!) abhor! The radicals leave the thoughtful people and the moderates twisting in the wind, without much influence, and viciously accused by their opponents of carrying water or being "useful idiots."
What Im saying is I really liked this convo, and many convos, and I love this pod so much that I've paid for it for years, and I dont want to be too pessimistic because life is dope, but I really really fucking hate politics as it is practiced in this weird ass media culture we're living in.
Man, we need more people like her. She's amazing. Clearly the political and cultural landscape is changing. Thank God. Every year we get further away from 2020 feels that much more sane.
Can't wait to listen. I hope for more illuminating exchanges like there were on the recent episode with Shadi Hamid. In that episode, I particularly liked that MM did a great job exploring some of the issues surrounding Israel/Hamas/Palestine/October 7. He did so respectfully and in a way that genuinely sought to understand Shadi's perspective. And Shadi offered it clearly and with reciprocal respect.
Same here. I personally quite like hearing many different perspectives and viewpoints, not just trying to have my priors confirmed. That would be so very dull.
Exactly. One of the joys of Da 5th.
It's extremely tone-deaf in the BLM era to say that only black identitarianism carries a stigma. White identity does too, and it should. I am white, but my whiteness is not a point of pride and it shouldn’t be. I wonder if she has never once been exposed to this basic point or if she just tunes it out.
The through line between the pod with Shadi and Abby Phillips is that once you start getting to specific questions, Shadi with Gaza/Israel and Abby with race, the responses become very surface level and shows a clear lack of deep thinking about an issue. The answers given are of soundbite nature and a whiff of 'these are the things I'm supposed to say if I'm on this side of the issue' answers.
It's a shame these vague responses came at the end of both pods as I would have loved for them to be probed for specifics and implications.
Yes, both guests have the real gift of gab and seem to have gotten the post-2024 message of “Don't sound deranged.” Phillip talking about her childhood, island culture, family views towards the American black community is really quite engaging. But I get the impression that while she has learned to sound more moderate and personable, her ideas are still the generic progressive identity-infused standard.
Cue the on-air apology on CNN tomorrow night
“I want to apologize for appearing on The Fifth Column podcast…I do not associate with any of these views and/or stereotypical voices/accents from Michael Moynihan”
Matty with the Tucker impression! Well done sir!
Loved the episode, annoyed that substack sucks as an app.
I think I still have 2020 PTSD. After hearing “Trinnies” bandied about, my kneejerk thought was that these mfers are getting cancelled.
You guys gotta have Mamdani on.
Want to!
Very impressed with her and learned a bit about Jesse Jackson. It was interesting that her and Kmele have a lot of similarities but came to view race in a very different way.
35:20 Unfortunately, Abby Phillip is mistaken about the origin of Angostura Aromatic Bitters, which are named for the town of Angostura, Venezuela where they were invented. Angostura Bitters are made in Port of Spain, Trinidad today.
One should expect booze related fact checks from the fifth columnists
I found Abby much more agreeable and sensible than I expected.
But I also think she buys into the exaggerations of present-day racism way too much.
I found her rationalization of BLM to be a bit naive. Just because some of the original folks that introduced it didn't want it to be an exclusive sentiment doesn't mean a whole bunch of others felt the same way.
But an excellent convo. And her book does sound interesting.
Loved it, no notes. Please schedule Damon Root soon for a rundown of various arguments before the court.
Have really enjoyed the recent run of guest episodes!
Why is everyone late to shows that Moynihan is part of hosting as of late?
This was delightful. Great guest and conversation.
I'll have to think about the ending salvo on BLM. I do believe it was exclusionary based on how it was largely promoted and reported on.
Call it a cheap retort at the time, but as "all lives matter" met this moment, I recall the dominant response was to characterize "all lives matter" as reactionary, racist, and typifying the white supremacist mentality of America. I do not recall anyone in a position of any prominence in the movement saying "absolutely, and we welcome everyone to reflect on our message and we demand the same level of dignity and equality" culturally that the "I AM A MAN" credo asserted at the time.
In this way, it is similar to the trans rights movement, both in what is being asserted in its promotion and reporting. Likewise, trans rights activism in its dominant form has demanded more than the dignity and equalitu of the "I AM A MAN" credo. (There's a joke to be made here but I would never pick low hanging fruit...)
What I wonder for thoughtful people like Abby with respect to the subject of "identity" is, yes, the ever present risk of motte and bailey in modern political activism, but also the risk that some of the, shall we say, charitable interpretations thoughtful people like her make for these movements wont ultimately bring about a reasonable, nuanced outcome. Hers and people like her - their charity is defeated almost immediately because the radical elements double down. The classic example is "well they dont actually mean defund the police literally" and the radical front of the movement says "oh yes the fuck we do."
Likewise, the widely parroted "a black trans woman threw the first brick at Stonewall" is perhaps the most apropos example of this feverish desire to not only re-write every piece of history to favor the identity group, but to flatten history considerably. To demand history be changed, or else you are on the side of the oppressor, etc. This is the exact kind of myth making and bad history that Abby (and all of us should!) abhor! The radicals leave the thoughtful people and the moderates twisting in the wind, without much influence, and viciously accused by their opponents of carrying water or being "useful idiots."
What Im saying is I really liked this convo, and many convos, and I love this pod so much that I've paid for it for years, and I dont want to be too pessimistic because life is dope, but I really really fucking hate politics as it is practiced in this weird ass media culture we're living in.