Not through it yet but I can tell this is going to be a rough one. Do I think Trump is awful, in some ways uniquely? Sure as shit I do.
Moran at about 9:20 says of Trump “he attacked democracy, probably the worst thing any American has ever done.”
That’s the quote, feel free to go look. OKC bombing, nope. Japanese Americans in internment camps? No sir. Trump. This guy has gone bananas about Trump and it shows so very hard. Trump is miserable and I can’t stand him. Jan 6 was awful, and the parsons too. But come the fuck on. Did he lose his mind over the democrats running a man in the midst of dementia and the way they incredibly democratically decided with no vote to run Harris? (Edited because I felt, in the sober light of day, that I had been a lil too harsh)
It's not as bad as when a formerly esteemed historian like Michael Beschloss screeched about how Jan 6. was :the closest we've been to losing our democracy since the Civil War."
All right, made it through the episode. It is hard for me to recall another recent guest I have disagreed with more. Was good to hear some challenges to my positions even though he failed entirely to persuade me, I just think Moran is kind of a schmuck. That said, glad I listened, appreciate it gentlemen!
First, as always, I love the pod. It’s one of the few places that doesn’t feel ideologically captured, and you’re genuinely funny. I’d happily have dinner—and drinks—with all of you.
That said, the episode with Terry was a difficult listen. I consider myself center-left—strongly anti-Trump and anti-DSA—and agreed with some of his points. But presenting recycled populist policies as innovative, particularly regarding Mamdani, was frustrating. These ideas aren’t new and have created serious problems elsewhere. To paraphrase George Will, every generation seems to need a confined experiment with socialism so we can learn that lesson again.
The wealth-tax discussion was especially disappointing. “I’m not a CPA” felt like a cop-out while making confident claims about a complex policy. Billionaires should pay their fair share, but these people built companies that created jobs, supported other businesses, and generated value for pensions and 401(k)s. I’d rather see that innovation and wealth creation happen here than elsewhere.
Wealth taxes are also extremely difficult to administer. How do you value private companies, artwork, or other illiquid assets? Should people owe tax on unrealized gains or shares they cannot yet sell? And once introduced for billionaires, the threshold may eventually fall and affect many more people. I experienced this mess firsthand in Spain; its wealth tax was why I left.
There are more practical reforms: eliminate the step-up in basis at death, close genuine loopholes, and consider taxing capital gains and dividends as ordinary income above a high threshold.
American CEO pay is partly explained by larger companies, deeper capital markets, and performance-based compensation. But weak governance, peer benchmarking, and rewards for general market gains can inflate it. The difficult question is how to address that without undermining legitimate incentives. Terry also does not seem to understand when he says "they don't pay income tax on CEO equity" - they do, when they sell the stock. Same way all other assets work. He needs to at least get some basic understanding of how taxes work, and where the very wealthy are getting around taxes - and in general people who get paid a lot and get equity are not the ones getting around taxes - it is more business owners, investors, etc.
Many workers have not shared proportionately in economic growth. Rather than focusing only on executive pay, we should reduce essential costs and strengthen public education, vocational training, and healthcare. A mixed healthcare system could adopt the best elements of universal coverage without requiring an entirely government-run system.
He's wrong too - they of course pay income tax on CEO equity - it can be taxed differently, and the law allows them do so, but you get taxed on most any compensation you receive for your job, one way or the other.
The thing that needs to get taxed is borrowing against investment assets - that's where the chicanery occurs. Borrowing against untaxed equity should trigger a capital gains tax at the moment of borrowing. And also my opinion, cap gains should be taxed as regular income (and we should have a flat tax). This would all be my "if I were king" moment - but I'm not a CPA.
I sort of disagree in taxing collateral borrowing because taxing that way will impact many people, so we need to be careful what we ask for. If you eliminate the step-up in inheritance or donations you sort of take away the benefit - meaning the tax will get paid a some point. Often the example is Elon borrowing to buy Twitter - but he borrowed 19B by collateralizing 65B in Tesla stock - so he looses big if he can not repay the loan (unless of course Tesla stock collapses). Not a CPA either, but this is my understanding.
Agreed on cap gains should be taxed at ordinary rates - even if you do it above a certain annual amount which can even be $1M or more.
Nice guy but...yeah. Codifying a vague wealth tax into the constitution? Any new path will get us to somewhere better? Trump was a new path: Where did HE get us? I don't understand how he equivocates on DSA. They hate America, full stop. He seemed sorta knowledgeable in some areas but kinda moronic in others. Weird experience. He seemed to contradict himself too: He claims he's telling The Truth where 'they' aren't and we need to fight that....yet he wants more Trumpers in media to balance out bias...but they will have thr views he thinks we need to fight against.
As long as people like this exist and are in public spaces, I will continue voting for republicans despite my self just to spite them. This is total absence of any self reflection.
Oof. Personally, I dislike and disagree with the "there's no such thing as objectivity" mindset. I know he said it specifically in reference to journalism. But it is always followed by the person then talking as if their perspective and subsequent point is objective. If they believed that, they'd think it necessary to qualify and caveat every piece of reporting they've done with, "oh gosh, I'm hopelessly subjective and biased so take it with a grain of salt". Of course our perspectives are not utterly perfect and objective, but that's the whole deal of truth seeking and journalism, is it not? Sourcing standards, adversarial fact checking, etc. Unless all reporting is just editorializing no matter what? Come on!
And then the "I'm not going to defend government run grocery stores" followed by a swift defense of "I just like the willingness to try". The willingness to try, regardless of the policy/idea, is our barometer for a winning political stance?
How about taking your coercive project home and imposing it on your own people, Mr Moran. If a wealth tax is such a valuable and necessary idea, I'm sure you'll have no problem implementing it in your city/county/state and enjoying its fruit.
"Let's just try stuff!" Thanks but no thanks to your Ready! Fire! Aim! philosophy of public policy. This is a big country; you do you where you live, but leave the rest of us the hell out of it.
The parade of economic dunces has bankrupted my patience.
I’m glad his executive dad making 30x the average worker was able to afford to rent a vacation cabin every summer. Totally just an average guy back in the day
Ooh wee.. this came off the wheels during the constitutional amendment discussion (“I’m not an accountant”?!). TM showed a shocking lacking of depth around basic topics. I’m worried this is your median Dem voter right now who is gaga for DSA candidates and “change” but completely naive about the risks to their policies.
I can’t emphasize enough how wrongheaded I think it is to suggest our problems are the result of a lack of youthful imagination and daring. The young are enthusiastic and revolutionary because they don’t understand anything. Stop telling me about tradeoffs and dare to not pay rent sort of thing. Defund the police. We just need social workers. And so on.
If you think the problem is a lack of a better more universal healthcare system, the reason we don’t have that is nobody wants to pay for it the way countries which have such systems pay for them - broad based high tax rates affecting most people. Pretending the problem is that we haven’t dared to do a wealth tax makes the realization of the goal further away. That’s if you actually identify the problem as healthcare. If you identify the problem as you just want rich people to incur losses then sure. But maybe don’t act like that’s some noble enterprise. I’m open a to wealth tax of some design at margins that aren’t insane but it simply won’t raise enough money to do anything people care about. Liquidate all billionaires and you find the federal government for 7-8 months one time. So then what? What’s the new youthful thing we dare to do? It won’t be raise taxes on median incomes. Maybe the whole point is just to bitch ineffectually while larping as a revolutionary?
Off topic here so I apologize but today a Glen Loury show came across my feed with Eli Lake and the much discussed (and impersonated) Norman Fincklestein (sp) Not at the same time as I Assume Norma wouldn't want to go against Eli , realizing I have never Actually heard this person speak (Just Moynihan version) and as soon as Glenn introduced him and wished him well the "Thank You For Having Me" was spoken and Hot Damn if Moynihan doesn't have this one down pat. His other impressions (Melania sounds like the Italian Puppeteer Señor Wences as do most of his east euro voices) , I decided to listen a bit to this guy and He is very good at slow talking and hiding the fact He isnt answering any questions (Even though mid slow rant he will say "Now To Your Question" then again neglect the actual question.
Kind of a COVID bombshell at the end that likely would have gone mega viral prior to 2024. Overall an interesting conversation and I thought the respectful pushback by Matt and Michael was very well done.
My understanding: He got the script to do the voice over for the segment, and he got angry at all the added BS, but he or somebody read and recorded the script, and he has not seen the segment that aired. Is that about right?
Has anybody looked up the segment he is talking about?
Not through it yet but I can tell this is going to be a rough one. Do I think Trump is awful, in some ways uniquely? Sure as shit I do.
Moran at about 9:20 says of Trump “he attacked democracy, probably the worst thing any American has ever done.”
That’s the quote, feel free to go look. OKC bombing, nope. Japanese Americans in internment camps? No sir. Trump. This guy has gone bananas about Trump and it shows so very hard. Trump is miserable and I can’t stand him. Jan 6 was awful, and the parsons too. But come the fuck on. Did he lose his mind over the democrats running a man in the midst of dementia and the way they incredibly democratically decided with no vote to run Harris? (Edited because I felt, in the sober light of day, that I had been a lil too harsh)
It's not as bad as when a formerly esteemed historian like Michael Beschloss screeched about how Jan 6. was :the closest we've been to losing our democracy since the Civil War."
God, I think my brain blocked that out
All right, made it through the episode. It is hard for me to recall another recent guest I have disagreed with more. Was good to hear some challenges to my positions even though he failed entirely to persuade me, I just think Moran is kind of a schmuck. That said, glad I listened, appreciate it gentlemen!
Yeah 👍
It was a tough one. I love that Moran is out there celebrating the rise of communism because "man, these kids are really getting involved!"
First, as always, I love the pod. It’s one of the few places that doesn’t feel ideologically captured, and you’re genuinely funny. I’d happily have dinner—and drinks—with all of you.
That said, the episode with Terry was a difficult listen. I consider myself center-left—strongly anti-Trump and anti-DSA—and agreed with some of his points. But presenting recycled populist policies as innovative, particularly regarding Mamdani, was frustrating. These ideas aren’t new and have created serious problems elsewhere. To paraphrase George Will, every generation seems to need a confined experiment with socialism so we can learn that lesson again.
The wealth-tax discussion was especially disappointing. “I’m not a CPA” felt like a cop-out while making confident claims about a complex policy. Billionaires should pay their fair share, but these people built companies that created jobs, supported other businesses, and generated value for pensions and 401(k)s. I’d rather see that innovation and wealth creation happen here than elsewhere.
Wealth taxes are also extremely difficult to administer. How do you value private companies, artwork, or other illiquid assets? Should people owe tax on unrealized gains or shares they cannot yet sell? And once introduced for billionaires, the threshold may eventually fall and affect many more people. I experienced this mess firsthand in Spain; its wealth tax was why I left.
There are more practical reforms: eliminate the step-up in basis at death, close genuine loopholes, and consider taxing capital gains and dividends as ordinary income above a high threshold.
American CEO pay is partly explained by larger companies, deeper capital markets, and performance-based compensation. But weak governance, peer benchmarking, and rewards for general market gains can inflate it. The difficult question is how to address that without undermining legitimate incentives. Terry also does not seem to understand when he says "they don't pay income tax on CEO equity" - they do, when they sell the stock. Same way all other assets work. He needs to at least get some basic understanding of how taxes work, and where the very wealthy are getting around taxes - and in general people who get paid a lot and get equity are not the ones getting around taxes - it is more business owners, investors, etc.
Many workers have not shared proportionately in economic growth. Rather than focusing only on executive pay, we should reduce essential costs and strengthen public education, vocational training, and healthcare. A mixed healthcare system could adopt the best elements of universal coverage without requiring an entirely government-run system.
Yeah the 'any path will do' thing was nutty
He's wrong too - they of course pay income tax on CEO equity - it can be taxed differently, and the law allows them do so, but you get taxed on most any compensation you receive for your job, one way or the other.
The thing that needs to get taxed is borrowing against investment assets - that's where the chicanery occurs. Borrowing against untaxed equity should trigger a capital gains tax at the moment of borrowing. And also my opinion, cap gains should be taxed as regular income (and we should have a flat tax). This would all be my "if I were king" moment - but I'm not a CPA.
I sort of disagree in taxing collateral borrowing because taxing that way will impact many people, so we need to be careful what we ask for. If you eliminate the step-up in inheritance or donations you sort of take away the benefit - meaning the tax will get paid a some point. Often the example is Elon borrowing to buy Twitter - but he borrowed 19B by collateralizing 65B in Tesla stock - so he looses big if he can not repay the loan (unless of course Tesla stock collapses). Not a CPA either, but this is my understanding.
Agreed on cap gains should be taxed at ordinary rates - even if you do it above a certain annual amount which can even be $1M or more.
Nice guy but...yeah. Codifying a vague wealth tax into the constitution? Any new path will get us to somewhere better? Trump was a new path: Where did HE get us? I don't understand how he equivocates on DSA. They hate America, full stop. He seemed sorta knowledgeable in some areas but kinda moronic in others. Weird experience. He seemed to contradict himself too: He claims he's telling The Truth where 'they' aren't and we need to fight that....yet he wants more Trumpers in media to balance out bias...but they will have thr views he thinks we need to fight against.
Head-scratcher.
He seemed likable and earnest but some of his politics are screwy. The guys called him on it, interesting stuff.
As long as people like this exist and are in public spaces, I will continue voting for republicans despite my self just to spite them. This is total absence of any self reflection.
This is a hollow coward. 2021 was the dark years? Where the fuck was this guy when the entire media was cracking down and gaslighting me?
Oof. Personally, I dislike and disagree with the "there's no such thing as objectivity" mindset. I know he said it specifically in reference to journalism. But it is always followed by the person then talking as if their perspective and subsequent point is objective. If they believed that, they'd think it necessary to qualify and caveat every piece of reporting they've done with, "oh gosh, I'm hopelessly subjective and biased so take it with a grain of salt". Of course our perspectives are not utterly perfect and objective, but that's the whole deal of truth seeking and journalism, is it not? Sourcing standards, adversarial fact checking, etc. Unless all reporting is just editorializing no matter what? Come on!
And then the "I'm not going to defend government run grocery stores" followed by a swift defense of "I just like the willingness to try". The willingness to try, regardless of the policy/idea, is our barometer for a winning political stance?
The anti-objectivity newsies miss the point that it's something to strive for, even if it's something they'll never really attain.
How about taking your coercive project home and imposing it on your own people, Mr Moran. If a wealth tax is such a valuable and necessary idea, I'm sure you'll have no problem implementing it in your city/county/state and enjoying its fruit.
"Let's just try stuff!" Thanks but no thanks to your Ready! Fire! Aim! philosophy of public policy. This is a big country; you do you where you live, but leave the rest of us the hell out of it.
The parade of economic dunces has bankrupted my patience.
I’m glad his executive dad making 30x the average worker was able to afford to rent a vacation cabin every summer. Totally just an average guy back in the day
Ooh wee.. this came off the wheels during the constitutional amendment discussion (“I’m not an accountant”?!). TM showed a shocking lacking of depth around basic topics. I’m worried this is your median Dem voter right now who is gaga for DSA candidates and “change” but completely naive about the risks to their policies.
I can’t emphasize enough how wrongheaded I think it is to suggest our problems are the result of a lack of youthful imagination and daring. The young are enthusiastic and revolutionary because they don’t understand anything. Stop telling me about tradeoffs and dare to not pay rent sort of thing. Defund the police. We just need social workers. And so on.
If you think the problem is a lack of a better more universal healthcare system, the reason we don’t have that is nobody wants to pay for it the way countries which have such systems pay for them - broad based high tax rates affecting most people. Pretending the problem is that we haven’t dared to do a wealth tax makes the realization of the goal further away. That’s if you actually identify the problem as healthcare. If you identify the problem as you just want rich people to incur losses then sure. But maybe don’t act like that’s some noble enterprise. I’m open a to wealth tax of some design at margins that aren’t insane but it simply won’t raise enough money to do anything people care about. Liquidate all billionaires and you find the federal government for 7-8 months one time. So then what? What’s the new youthful thing we dare to do? It won’t be raise taxes on median incomes. Maybe the whole point is just to bitch ineffectually while larping as a revolutionary?
Off topic here so I apologize but today a Glen Loury show came across my feed with Eli Lake and the much discussed (and impersonated) Norman Fincklestein (sp) Not at the same time as I Assume Norma wouldn't want to go against Eli , realizing I have never Actually heard this person speak (Just Moynihan version) and as soon as Glenn introduced him and wished him well the "Thank You For Having Me" was spoken and Hot Damn if Moynihan doesn't have this one down pat. His other impressions (Melania sounds like the Italian Puppeteer Señor Wences as do most of his east euro voices) , I decided to listen a bit to this guy and He is very good at slow talking and hiding the fact He isnt answering any questions (Even though mid slow rant he will say "Now To Your Question" then again neglect the actual question.
Kind of a COVID bombshell at the end that likely would have gone mega viral prior to 2024. Overall an interesting conversation and I thought the respectful pushback by Matt and Michael was very well done.
Did I just hear this right? “A constant in American history is a sense that we are all in this together. “ Lol.
Did he say coon-dog area?
My understanding: He got the script to do the voice over for the segment, and he got angry at all the added BS, but he or somebody read and recorded the script, and he has not seen the segment that aired. Is that about right?
Has anybody looked up the segment he is talking about?