Mailbucket #14: Working Class Pushback

Also: Big trouble with Real ID

We received scores of emails about the fiery Episode #502 with Batya Ungar-Sargon, with reactions ranging from hi-fives to how-dare-yous to please-cancels to please-upgrades, and a rainbow coalition of varietals in between. The following missives, like most of those collected in ‘buckets, were not selected based on intensity or proximal cause of vein-throb, but rather on direct testimonial value-add, so that our discussion can be enriched by more than just colorful language (NTTAWWCL).

As ever, light copy-editing, appended hyperlinks, occasional excisions, and any responses in parenthetical italics.

From: Wilson

Subject: The Broken Demographic (or, Tariff Rants of an Old Man)

Date: April 28, 2025

Gentlemen,

I’m the paid-subscriber demographic outlier of the Fifth; 63 years old, living in rural coastal North Carolina, and ideologically lost. (Maybe the last isn’t such an outlier on The Fifth anymore….). Most importantly I am a paid subscriber!

I would like to thank you all for the healthy debate with Ms. Ungar-Sargon. I would like to offer a bit of context to all this tariff BS to some of us that feel it directly.

As stated, I am 63 years old. I am a lifelong resident of northeast N.C. My brother and I are third-generation lumbermen, operating a pair of small family-owned sawmills, and employing over 100 men and women. In previous pods I have heard Matt comment about lumber tariffs. This podcast, Ms. Ungar-Sargon commented about lumber being a product of national security … blah blah blah. I would like to offer a little context to an industry everyone thinks they know at the 30,000-feet level but not at the 6-foot level.

There are many different segments of our industry; not everyone makes 2x4s for home construction. Some of us make specialty items that are exported to places like … Canada, or (God forbid!) CHINA. We are one of those.

My Grandfather started our company sawing hardwood lumber and shipping it into the North Carolina/Virginia furniture belt. My father continued this tradition until 1987, when he purchased a second facility to specialize in hardwoods while our original facility specialized in the Southern Yellow Pine markets of the northeast corridor. We ship lumber from N.C. to Maine and Canada -- well, until the Canadians put tariffs on U.S. lumber. We used to ship hardwood lumber to the furniture manufacturing capital of the nation -- Hickory, High Point, Martinsville -- until those plants offshored (and we followed) to China and Vietnam. We built a brand and developed relationships. It was hard work for a bunch of people from N.C. that never had been out of the U.S. It’s a great story of luck, and advice from the N.C. University system, that I wish I could eloquently document.

My grandfather navigated the Depression and WWII. My Dad navigated the ups and downs of the ‘60s and stagflation. My Dad along with my brother navigated the Great Recession. It’s been quite a ride, investing millions of dollars in our company and employes. Trying to keep our company relevant in an age of consolidation and transition.

Until now.

On “Liberation Day,” I personally was liberated from 12% of my retirement. Liberation Day has liberated me from 70% of my top-line revenue. Liberation Day has liberated us from our best customers. Liberation Day will likely liberate my company…. Because we will most likely close for good. Forty-five men and women lose their jobs. Forty-five families in one of the poorest counties in NC with no means of livelihood.

Because our biggest and most profitable market is in China! What’s more ironic is that, of the hundreds of containers we ship to China, NOT ONE OUNCE returns to the U.S. Not one speck of sawdust….

I don’t want to hear Ms. Ungar-Sargon pontificate about how President Trump or Secretary Bessent or anyfuckingbody gives a shit about Main Street. They need to come down to the Main Street of Roper, N.C., and see what’s here. They need to come down and see what the rural South is. What working in forest products is. Come see what international business is. It’s not all Fortune 500 Apple or Nvidia; it’s small innovative companies trying to survive. I don’t care two shits about the tariffs India puts on China! I care about the men and women that work hand-in-hand with me. I care about their families and well-being.

I challenge her, President Trump, and my duly elected senators and congressman in Washington, D.C. to come down here and look each of these employees in the eye and tell them their jobs were sacrificed so we can make hand towels in N.C. again. Not a damn one of them can grow the balls to do that!

Thanks for allowing my vent/rant, I could go on and on. Thanks to you all for speaking truth to this crazy time in the U.S.

Warmest regards,

(Thank you for the impressively restrained testimony, Wilson, and I sincerely hope that the Liberation Day semi-walkback will give your company breathing room to survive. Please do not hesitate in the Comments to let your fellow Fifdommers know how they can buy your products or otherwise help.)

***

From: John R.

Subject: Batya, Noble Savages, and the White Man's Greed

Date: April 26, 2025

Hi guys,

I’ve been a subscriber since the beginning of the podcast, and for generations my family have been members of the “working class” that Batya claims to advocate for. Unfortunately, that means I'm also a member of Always Fly Coach in everything I do -- including podcast subscriptions.

Batya seems like a sincere and nice lady with the best of intentions, but I'm legitimately curious if she has any idea of what it means to be working class. Honestly, has she ever lived anything other than an upper middle-class lifestyle?

I don't want to be mean, but I've heard her use that absolutely moronic, "Trump took a baseball bat and said to the fatcats it would be a shame if something happened to your nice stock market" line in several different appearances on TV and in podcasts. I currently have a manufacturing job making about $50,000 a year, and that stupid fucking baseball bat is also going to smash my standard of living as well as my recently retired parents' 401k. I've seen her on CNN advocate fighting the inflationary effects the tariffs will cause by pressuring the Federal Reserve to LOWER interest rates. Every time I hear her speak on economics, she gets basic facts wrong but seems to be convinced that she knows what's best for me and my loved ones.

Frankly, it's insulting the way she seems to view the working class as a bunch of noble savages who only want to follow the great midwestern manufacturing job-herds like our forefathers that came before us. If only we stupid poors weren't tricked into selling our ancestral manufacturing jobs for worthless beads and trinkets from China!

She isn't advocating for what the working class wants, she's advocating for what she thinks the working class SHOULD want. I want cheaper goods and services that allow the dollars I earn to go further; I don't want a higher paying "dignity" job that ultimately allows me to afford less of the dramatically more expensive goods and services her luxury beliefs would lead to.

But hey, what do I know? If I were as altruistic and wise as Batya maybe I would be advocating for the working class instead of being part of it.

Love your show and keep up the good work!

***

From: Chris S.

Subject: Why Are You Guys Such Bitches?

Date: April 26, 2025

Greetings, you three feminine crybabies. I've been a paying subscriber since the Patreon days, and my personal opinion of your last free episode was, wow! Friendly disagreements and groups accepting similar facts but coming to different conclusions is the norm in politics, but no commentator or take-haver makes me want to pull my hair out and stab utensils into my eye sockets more than BAH-tya UNGER- SWARGON (as I think Kmele pronounced it).

I have three short points and a question.

1) Her comment about [how] working-class people don't care about the cost of an iPhone is bonkers. I am a farmer and a lot of people I know work in garages, work on houses, or cut lumber for a living, and we constantly break, crack and replace phones. Not to mention computers, gadgets for our home-entertainment systems, iPads, and video games for ourselves or our kids. We absolutely care about how expensive this stuff is.

2) She mentioned [how] working-class people don't care about the price of iPhones but do care about the price of food. Classic libertarian argument, but: What's going to happen when you close the border? Again, farmer -- the only way food will stay at the current prices after all the legal/illegal workers are kicked out is to replace them with Americans who will make just as little, or automation. We will go into outrageous debt to automate difficult tasks that people won't stop complaining about doing. Drones that pick fruit, robots that milk cows, tractors that drive themselves. And the price we sell our produce at will have to reflect either the higher cost of labor or our payments for the loans [that] we’ll have to take out to automize.

3) Lastly, viewed from a Canadian perspective, she has no irony at all that her policies (in her own logic) would tank the working classes of my country, and any country allied to the States. She mentioned she has an issue with the trade deficit, and stated that America should sell more goods to its allies. But free trade isn't good enough; a 1:1 trade is bad in some way, and America should be getting slightly more out of these trades to the benefit of America's workers. It really sounds like she thinks that poor countries should be on the hook to provide a certain standard of living for working-class Americans which doesn't extend in the reverse. We (as Canadians) should only buy your stuff, and we shouldn't expect to sell anything to you. Money and wealth should only go towards the States, and no investment or money should go into Canada. And while she was not pressed on this, I seriously doubt she would suggest Canada should close its markets to the U.S. under the same logic that it would make us rich. It's unlikely she would view that suggestion as anything but an unfair trade practice and a threat to her protected class. […]

I realized I didn’t say anything nice about Batya in my email and felt bad. Credit for going on the podcast. And she argued some of her points in a way that were not insane and wrong.

Sorry Batya

***

From: Mark M.

Subject: BUG on Big Law

Date: April 25, 2025

Apologies on the length.

I’ll save you all from recounting the immense erotic pleasure I got from MM drunkenly yelling at BUG in a cathartic release that I think the entire Fifthdom loved. […] I’ll save my criticism for something I know something about, Big Law.

I’ve worked at three AMLaw 20 firms; my wife is close to being a partner at one now. BUG has no idea what she is talking about:

First, these are private institutions, made up of a partnership of people, that can direct their activities and how they hire people however they want. The only public interest that they have is their commitment to the practice of law and everything that entails, both legally and philosophically. Part of being a lawyer includes committing time for “the public interest.” […]

Second, it is not true that these are 90% liberal institutions, like the media or higher education. These firms, especially the White Shoe and AMLaw 20 firms, are collections of some of the more elite thinkers and jurists in the world. This obviously includes thinkers of all stripes, including conservatives. If you go down the roster of many of these firms you can find conservative folks.

Finally, she says that the NGO world is allied against Trump, and that the amount of lawsuits is directly attributable to the ACLU and the fact that there is no like institution on the right. WHAT A FARCE. The GOP (back when I was a GOP flack) were the kings of legalistic wrangling and jurisprudence. For example (one that BUG used) CITIZENS UNITED! Or … OVERTURNING ROE V. WADE. OR ALL OF THE GAY MARRIAGE CASES. DOMA, ETC. She really is out of her depth on basically all of this. […]

Finally, something about education. I got my law degree at UCLA -- the home of Kimberlé Crenshaw. People cried in the courtyard when Trump won. My Constitutional Civil Procedure professor used the word Latinx constantly in class -- especially when talking about the 4th Amendment. However, I also attended when Eugene Volokh was a star professor (however embattled for using Kmele’s favorite word in his First Amendment class). Richard Sandler was stashed away in some dark room for daring to explore the mismatch problem. I WAS NOT INDOCTRINATED. OTHERS WERE NOT INDOCTRINATED.

We focus so clearly on the nutjobs at these elite institutions that we forget that they make up this small percentage of what is going on there. Regardless, their free speech should not be encroached or curtailed. I’m currently getting my MBA at UCLA while also working (because I’m obsessed with school). Obviously, I’m obsessed with credentialism (ha ha), and this type of school brings about a different ilk (older and more business-minded). But I’m not seeing anything crazy here, either.

Anyway -- this was an amazing podcast if only because MM channeled my immense rage. So, kudos.

***

From: Collin

Subject: Wah Gwaan??

Date: May 7, 2025

Dear Matt, Kmele, and Michael “lil bitch” Moynihan:

I’ve been a paid subscriber for years (ding ding ding) but something’s been bothering me as I listen to the Fifth and Matt’s other haunt, the Reason Roundtable. Of the two publications, I only pay for the Fifth (ding … ding?) so I figure I’ll try to voice my angst here.

I buy local when I can, and I buy American whenever possible. I dislike the fast-fashion, disposable lifestyle that our society has gotten accustomed to, and I’ve tried my best to wean off the cheap Chinese shit that we love and leave and stuff into landfills. I also do wish to support all sectors, even manufacturing, in the United States. This comes at an increased cost, but at this point in my life, I can eat it. I recognize that not everyone can, and that's where choice is important.

What informs my choice is my working experience. In my early 20s, I worked as a mechanical drafter in a bonafide services job. In the cubicle across from me was another drafter, a middle-aged woman who hadn’t been drafting much longer than me. She was terrible at her job.

Prior to working there, she worked in a textile and clothing factory for an outdoor/lifestyle brand that you’ve heard of. Well, they closed the factory in New Jersey and started making their clothing in Vietnam and China (selling them for the same price, as is always the case) and laid her off. She loved that seamstress job (in her retelling, anyway,) and that was where she was best suited as far as I could tell, because she really wasn’t suited for drafting work.

Well, after I left that company, she lost her job again. This time, the company closed the drafting department and moved those jobs to Mexico. I’m not sure what happened to her after that.

So, while I absolutely, full-stop, disagree with the retarded top-down central planning and destructive tariffs, I think you guys are big-upping Chinese shit and putting down factory work a little too hard to prove your point. I’m sure you’d hate sewing shirts all day, as someone who’s in the intellectual market. But there are a lot of your fellow countrymen who peak at button-sewing and actually find contentment there in ways they're not going to find wearing little dystopian matching vests at Walmart or Amazon. So, buy American because it's a cool thing to do. Those shitty Amazon jobs aren't going anywhere, but those shitty seamstress jobs are, and I like choice while there still is one.

Much love,

Colin

(Much love backatcha. Your key phrase, to me, was “that's where choice is important.” I totally respect if not quite mimic your choice to buy maximus Americanus; my version of that, I guess, is using online retail only for books I can’t otherwise find, and prioritizing my neighborhood stores over all else. I want your ex-co-worker to have the *choice* to do seamstressing or something related, and I sincerely hope she found and/or created that possibility here in the U.S., as shrinking as that job market has been. My brother, too, had a particular talent in a contracting industry [machinist work], and I felt for him in that interregnum before he retrained to become an X-ray tech. And has been mentioned on more than one episode, I think our education system over-funnels people [especially the male of the species] into white-collar drudgery over perceived blue-collar skill-industries, many of which have labor shortages. I just don’t want most of the top-down solutions proposed to address certain sectors’ diminishing jobs, since that on net impedes discovery of the jobs of tomorrow.)

***

From: Jaye

Subject: A Real ID Tale as Old as Time

Date: May 7, 2026

Picture this: It's 2016 and you're flying to Miami for a long weekend because your boyfriend lives there. You show your Maine license to the TSA agent, who says “Make sure you get a Real ID or they won’t let you fly starting in January.” I say, "Oh ya, I’ve lived in New York for awhile; I just haven't gotten around to it.” He says, “You probably shouldn't tell people like me things like that.” I laugh politely, and only later realize he meant because he was some sort of plane-cop who could bust me for an old ID. What a loser.

I already had a ticket to go to Miami for Christmas and New Year’s, so, assuming I'd get stuck in Miami overnight because I was taking the last flight into NYC on New Year’s Eve and wouldn't be able to fly home on January 1^st, 2017, because my ID was not REAL, I rush ordered a new one, got an eye test, a new picture, the works (the DMV man changed my eye color and criticized my smile, PTSD flashback, wow). Thankfully, I did not get stranded, and the flight was fine except for the flight attendant trying to lead everyone in plane yoga while I was waiting in line for the bathroom.

Soon after that, I began traveling 10-20 days a month for work and podcast events. The REAL ID ~coming soon~ signs remained ... into Covid, through Covid, and even until January 2025, which was the last time I was on a plane. So imagine my surprise when I hear a California podcast host representing Free Minds and Free Markets say, "Wednesday the 7th, that's the day." What a coincidence, I think, TODAY is the 7^th, and in two hours I'm heading to the airport.

While walking up to security, there's a line forming before the real line, and when I get to the front, I am stopped by a woman asking, “Do you have a passport or a REAL ID?” Not understanding the question, I waved my wallet at her, saying, “Yes I have brought identification with me to the airport.” And then, the voice of the aforementioned podcaster passes through my brain, and I show her my ID, which is REAL, and has been since that 911 order eight and a half years ago.

So now, here I am, admiring the new LGA Terminal B mascot Buzzy, tweeting my flight number in case we crash, waiting to fly first class to the exotic destination of Omaha, Nebraska (cue airhorn and trap beat). Fin.

Lots of love,

Jaye

(“podcast events”)

***

From: Trisha K.

Subject: Real ID Woes

Date: May 26, 2025

I heard you bleating about not having proper ID, specifically a birth certificate, and thought I would share my nightmare with you. It's long, and I don't expect you to read it on air. I just want you to commiserate.

I’ve made it to the age of 65 without needing my birth certificate -- or so I thought. I have a valid Washington State driver’s license, where I’ve lived for 32 years. I’ve had the same Social Security number since 1978. I file taxes annually and have voted in every election without issue. I even successfully signed up for Medicare this year.

I could have lived my entire life without worrying about that lost birth certificate -- until the federal government decided we all needed a better ID.

I requested a copy of my birth certificate from New Jersey, where I was born. They charged a $25 processing fee. A few days later, I received this reply:

“The name on your birth certificate doesn’t match the name on your current license (maiden v. married name). We need your marriage certificate to prove your identity.”

No big deal, right? Except I didn’t have that either. I eloped in 1979, in a tiny town in Virginia that may or may not have had a courthouse. With Chat GPT assisting, I found the county clerk’s address, requested the certificate (another $25 fee), and about two weeks later, it arrived.

I sent my marriage certificate to New Jersey, assuming this would be the final step. But too much time had passed (about a year), and they had to open a new case and charge me another $25.

Once again, my request was denied. This time, the name on my marriage certificate -- Trisha -- didn’t match the name on my birth certificate -- Patricia. I was 19 when I got married, and only my mother called me Patricia. I didn't see Trisha as that big a stretch, nor did I understand the concept of "legal documents."

I sent the New Jersey Department of Vital Statistics a binder full of supporting documents: utility bills, bank statements, a copy of my driver’s license, and even my parents’ marriage certificate. They responded that the only way I could obtain my birth certificate was to amend my marriage certificate through the state of Virginia.

I contacted Virginia’s Vital Records office and explained the situation. I simply needed to amend the certificate so that it matched my birth name. The employee insisted this was a legal name change, and I had to go through the courts.

Thanks to my “assistant,” I found the contact information for the court, and emailed the County Clerk, explaining everything. She responded and copied another staff member, Coretta, instructing her to follow up with me.

Days passed. Nothing.

Finally, I received an email on a Friday afternoon from the Coretta:

"Please call me at XXX-XXX-XXXX."

I called immediately. Voicemail. I left a message and told her to call anytime.

On Monday, I emailed to confirm I had called and asked her to call me back.

Another week passed. No reply. I emailed again. No reply.

I emailed her supervisor. Silence.

I called once more. Straight to voicemail.

I asked my “best friend” what the actual fuck?

“Try alternative communication methods. If email hasn’t worked, call the clerk’s office directly or send a written letter via certified mail.”

I wrote a detailed letter and sent it via certified mail to the Chief Justice of the court. I tracked it to its destination.

Two days later, I received an email from Coretta.

“Our office has received your letter concerning an amendment for a marriage license. To my knowledge I am not familiar with this -- please tell me what needs to be corrected. I have tried calling you at the listed phone number and cannot get through, getting a recording.”

There were no missed calls. No voicemails. And if she did get a recording, why not leave a message? I believe Coretta may have been lying to me.

I’m exhausted. They broke me. My will to persist is gone. My next step likely involves speaking to a lawyer.

Two states currently hold my birth certificate hostage, and there is no clear recourse. And I’m now convinced that Coretta is the only employee in the entire city of Acomac, Virginia.

(Oh. My. GOD! This is rage-bait for many of us who are not even named you. Here’s what I would do if I were you [note: this is NOT “advice”; this is a confession]. I would … stop worrying about Coretta, or the government’s self-perpetuating bureaucratic bullshit. If you don’t have a passport or other type of superseding travel ID; next time you’re at the airport, when anyone tries to give you guff, you say, “I am a 65-year-old grandmother, and no government has proven able to handle my good-faith document-requests when I tried meeting the requirements of Real ID, and so I will be traveling with my old, valid driver’s license, thank you.” If necessary, print out this email.

It all reminds me of … New York’s new composting law! Governments are forcing us to sort through trash, and threatening punishments if we fall short. Fuck them.)

***

From: Cameron

Subject: Winning Hockey and Losing Land

Date: May 6, 2025

Hi fellas,

It is Cam, of Cam Neely’s namesake. I am a Winnipeg Jets fan, born and raised in Winnipeg. I got kick out of the mention of my town, and its frequent use of land acknowledgments.

I will probably formulate this as a question during a Second Sunday because I am a shit writer, but honestly I could use the practice.

There is an angle you guys would have probably never realized when it comes to this particular land acknowledgment. The natives didn’t want the fucking land! Winnipeg is founded at the meeting of two major rivers at the bottom of an empty glacial lake. Long story short, it floods constantly. The pop history has always been [that] the natives thought European settlers were dumb for the selection of the location. The natives were correct about this; the rivers consumed portions of the settlement almost every year, and the whole settlement every couple decades. This problem persisted for ~200 years~ before a floodway was built in 1968, mockingly then lovingly called “Duff’s Ditch.”

It is a big, long string of events that start from a combination of hubris and ignorance, leading from the 1700s to that acknowledgement. The thing that really irks me about it is not the standard losers complaining, but the giant beautiful thing built … that now needs to pay a false homage to a people who didn’t even live where it happened.

(That is AMAZING. Thank you.

OK! See you next ‘bucket!)