As much as I fully agree with everything said about ICE's stupid tactics, stupid training, stupid recruits, disturbing papers-please-ing to basically random people, I just can't get completely on board on the demonization of the agency. it's just so obvious that almost all of their most vocal critics simply don't want immigration law enforced, period. ICE's critics see themselves in the same light as those who tried to thwart and disrupt any enforcement of the Fugitive Slave Act. I just don't think that going after illegal immigrants and going after fugitive slaves are morally in the same universe. And while I agree that ICE should begin by looking for more hardened criminals, I'm not at all convinced that average Americans have anything against them going after regular old visa overstays by doing a bit of cross referencing of entries and exits into the US with other data like where people work or live.
These guys are completely ignoring the role local governments and police forces have in fomenting the local populace and protecting illegal aliens often at the expense of the natives. It's absurd to believe ICE can do a picture perfect job under those circumstances, so my tolerance for mistakes is very high at this point.
And in the case of Minneapolis, the sheer scale of the corruption there leads me to believe that the powers that be don't want ANY enforcement of any kind, so fuck'em. They can drop a MOAB on that city for all I care. I kid. Maybe.
Pretty god damned far from a perfect job right now lol. You can be mad at protestors without pretending anything they are doing right now is remotely acceptable.
And it wasn’t protests → unacceptable behavior it went the other way around!
I would note that shooting of Renee Good through the windshield is dubiously self defense(supporting negligent tactics- stepping in front of the vehicle.
) 1 shot through the windshield very questionable, 2 shots through the open window as she passes by is execution.
Maybe I'm mistaken, but I always thought a huge reason libertarianish types like me are the way we are is because fraud like the stuff going on in Minnesota has been so obviously going on everywhere, forever, that even an idiot like Nick Shirley could point it out
Agree that Nick Shirley is a dummy, but isn't it telling that most professional journalists couldn't be bothered to do the basic reporting that Shirley did? This moron just showed up and pointed to the "Learing Center" and it went viral. Why wasn't local Minneapolis press or anyone else doing this?
They were: Bill Glahn and others. KTSP went to a few daycares last January, and did this same stunt! I think it has to do with new influencer journalism vs old skool broadcast and online journalism. YouTube is where the eyes are (right guys???).
another thing on the nick shirley topic. moynihan claimed that the nick shirley video is what led to the deployment of ICE into minnesota. this is incorrect. operation metro surge began on december 4th. the nick shirley video was december 26th.
Most of the local stations have been all over these various fraud schemes for the past couple years. Honestly, I was a little surprised by the sudden national attention and uproar, since it's been a steady news item for so long here.
They've gotten over a dozen convictions already in the "Feeding Our Future" case alone. And with state attorneys resigning over the ICE shenanigans, it's going to cause issues with continuing those cases.
From other reporting it sounds like the ICE agent in question has been employed for 10 years, so for him “speedy onboarding” concerns are not a good explanation. Still can be true that the current training and onboarding environment have contributed though.
Please stop citing the Obama "deportation" numbers. As a quick Google can show, everyone from Fox to Vox reported at the time that his administration broadened the definition to include people turned away at the border or a port of entry. Since this was specifically intended to be a cynical political strategy, it is always frustrating to hear people falling for the propaganda.
“For example, in 2014, Secretary of Homeland Security Jeh Johnson told Congress that figures tied to U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) that indicated a record of deportations under Obama were really not deportations, but quick turn-backs at the border of immigrants detained at or near the boundary line and then sent back to Mexico without a formal deportation process or order.
“Johnson’s statement came during an exchange with lawmakers at a congressional hearing when a Republican queried him on whether the Obama administration was inflating deportation figures.
“‘Under the Obama administration, more than half of those removals that were attributed to ICE are actually a result of Border Patrol arrests that wouldn’t have been counted in prior administrations?’ asked Rep. John Culberson, a Texas Republican, at the March 2014 hearing.
“‘Correct,’ Johnson stated, adding: ‘We are enforcing the law vigorously and effectively, which results in the removal of over 300,000 people a year over the last several years.” Yet, when the 2014 and 2015 Yearbooks came out, there was no correction of removal figures listed in the annual publications and no note attesting to Johnson’s clarification. In fact, the figures listed in the Yearbook are clearly labeled as removals or deportations, not border turn-backs.”
You can tell people facts and they will dispute it because they fundamentally don't believe in enforcing immigration. Everything else is window dressing to get you to back off.
They didn't broaden the terms, there's just no legal distinction for deportation vs turning away at the border, as opposed to removal vs return. They increased the rate of removals (i.e., cases with formal court proceedings) among apprehensions at the border (as opposed to simple returns) but also more closely focused interior removals on criminals. The total number of summary turn-backs at the border dropped because the weak economic recovery reduced the pull to the US for illegal immigrants.
You are 1000% wrong about this and it is depressing/distressing you don't see that.
Most of the increase came from border apprehensions, not interior enforcement. After 2011, interior removals of non-criminal illegal immigrants declined sharply as enforcement priorities were narrowed and broad discretion policies took effect. Programs like DACA and prosecutorial discretion explicitly shielded large categories of people from removal.
Attributing fewer turn-backs to a weak economy ignores policy signals. Border flows respond strongly to enforcement cues, and the Obama administration consistently signaled reduced interior enforcement and selective application of the law, contributing to later surges.
In practice, Obama did not expand enforcement. He constrained it, reclassified outcomes to claim higher numbers, and normalized non-enforcement for large populations.
It's frustrating that certain facts of the matter can't be established with the MN ICE shooting.
For instance, the officer was not standing directly in front of the car until the driver repositioned.
Now maybe you can fault his tactics for not getting out of the way as she maneuvered, but he didn't violate the policy or the legal standard by intentionally moving in front of a moving vehicle.
I'm still seeing people deny he was touched at all by the car. Or that she was an activist.
Moreover, as a general rule, if you drive towards an officer you're probably gonna get shot and it's probably gonna be ruled to be legal use of force.
If all you knew about the case was "woman drives towards officer while resisting arrest and she was shot and killed" then that's basically a man bites dog outcome for violent police encounters.
Agreed, this is one of those tragic but justified situations from everything I've seen. I wish I were amazed that this has become so politicised and seemingly myopically tribal, but that's been the case with almost every flashpoint event across the Anglosphere (US above all) for at least 12-15 years now.
“we don’t know how long he has been on the force. could be a few hire.”
he was initially reported as a ten year vet an entire week ago. a basic google search shows this fact has been reported by cbs news, nbc news, the guardian, usa today, new york times, ap news, star tribune, and yahoo.
Great episode! I agree that ICE is engaging in tactics that I find awful, but in Target video, you can see the employee take a swing at the agent as they went inside. In this video, you can see it at the 48 second mark. Not that it excuses being dropped off at Walmart...
It's not unreasonable to interpret that movement as a defensive one, especially because if he HAD taken a swing at the officer, he would have been (rightly) arrested and charged with battery upon a law enforcement official.
Make law enforcement professional again. If you are an authority figure, whether that’s a teacher, manager, or in law enforcement, you should be on your best behavior. Being in such a position is both a privilege and a responsibility. When you’re not being serious and thoughtful about how you conduct yourself, you become a liability and squander your own credibility and that of the organization you represent. When you can’t demonstrate a basic understanding and respect for the rule of law and the constitution, you cannot be trusted to professionally uphold it.
You can't have a surge in hiring in any organization without some loss in quality. Just practically impossible. Because federal policy is on a two-to-four year cycle, any major policy shift of this magnitude has to be accomplished quickly, otherwise it's just going to be gearing up when the other party potentially gets into power.
I wish it were otherwise, but your ideals need to account for political exigencies, unless you're willing to bite the bullet and say "hey, in that case I guess we just can't surge particular capabilities which require extremely highly-trained operatives without significant cross-party support over extended periods."
I’m willing to hire that bullet. No voluntary slave should be allowed to even utter a swear word at any citizen without sever penalty. Period. And when I say country slave I only half mean it. If you
Choose public service then choose it for the service. Not for the ability to be a cock.
sonny bunch made a really great point on his show that maybe should have been obvious, but it wasn't obvious to me until i heard him say it:
the reactions to minneapolis in the past week are pure eddington.
you have liberal white ladies saying that they have to check their own reaction to the shooting because hey, it was a privileged white lady who was killed and you need to think more about the pocs.
& you have kyle rittenhouse saying 'hey, maybe mpls needs me to cross state lines to help keep things under control.
WE LIVE IN EDDINGTON. REALLY. THIS MOVIE IS GREAT AND PEOPLE WHO DON'T SEE ITS GREATNESS ARE WRONG.
Nick Shirley is dumb, but his claims about MN fraud have stood up so far. I have loads to say about this, but I'll save it. I'll just say that some of us care about the many competing narratives at play in Minnesota.
There is no fraud, but there are very odd circumstances. Also remember that someone in DHS said they were open and operating as they should. This was not good for DHS.
Some have pointed out they were using a questionable service to bus in kids for media spotlights. 2. DHS announced they were closed simultaneously as the media spotlights, 3. They were shut down on 1/6. I suspect they are being investigated, most likely as part of the large federal investigation. We won't hear the results of that for some time. They were not charged with fraud, but they were closed.
Keep in mind Frey was the mayor who was booed off the stage in Minneapolis when he would not commit to defund the police, in the aftermath of George Floyd. Minneapolis is the most progressive city in the midwest. To Matt’s point and Kmele’s question, it’s in Frey’s political best interest to be the “tough guy” with ICE. It would take courage to work to achieve a detente.
As much as I fully agree with everything said about ICE's stupid tactics, stupid training, stupid recruits, disturbing papers-please-ing to basically random people, I just can't get completely on board on the demonization of the agency. it's just so obvious that almost all of their most vocal critics simply don't want immigration law enforced, period. ICE's critics see themselves in the same light as those who tried to thwart and disrupt any enforcement of the Fugitive Slave Act. I just don't think that going after illegal immigrants and going after fugitive slaves are morally in the same universe. And while I agree that ICE should begin by looking for more hardened criminals, I'm not at all convinced that average Americans have anything against them going after regular old visa overstays by doing a bit of cross referencing of entries and exits into the US with other data like where people work or live.
Not to mention the endless provocation done by these seething, underemployed protesters. They want to be martyrs so bad; it’s fucking weird to me.
People try to LARP their heroes, and will distort reality around them to try and cram a square peg into a round hole.
This is what happens when the chief form of hero is the protester or the "Resistance."
These guys are completely ignoring the role local governments and police forces have in fomenting the local populace and protecting illegal aliens often at the expense of the natives. It's absurd to believe ICE can do a picture perfect job under those circumstances, so my tolerance for mistakes is very high at this point.
And in the case of Minneapolis, the sheer scale of the corruption there leads me to believe that the powers that be don't want ANY enforcement of any kind, so fuck'em. They can drop a MOAB on that city for all I care. I kid. Maybe.
Pretty god damned far from a perfect job right now lol. You can be mad at protestors without pretending anything they are doing right now is remotely acceptable.
And it wasn’t protests → unacceptable behavior it went the other way around!
I would note that shooting of Renee Good through the windshield is dubiously self defense(supporting negligent tactics- stepping in front of the vehicle.
) 1 shot through the windshield very questionable, 2 shots through the open window as she passes by is execution.
Maybe I'm mistaken, but I always thought a huge reason libertarianish types like me are the way we are is because fraud like the stuff going on in Minnesota has been so obviously going on everywhere, forever, that even an idiot like Nick Shirley could point it out
Then you’d think one would be able to expose it without completely clowning themselves like Shirley has
There was plenty of reporting on this stuff before his video, it's just that none of that blew up the way his did.
Here's a scary thought: What if Nick Shirley's video blew up nationally BECAUSE it was such a clown show?
What if careful, competent, accurate reporting never gets the attention it should because nobody on Twitter reposts it saying "this is CRAZY!"?
Agree that Nick Shirley is a dummy, but isn't it telling that most professional journalists couldn't be bothered to do the basic reporting that Shirley did? This moron just showed up and pointed to the "Learing Center" and it went viral. Why wasn't local Minneapolis press or anyone else doing this?
They were: Bill Glahn and others. KTSP went to a few daycares last January, and did this same stunt! I think it has to do with new influencer journalism vs old skool broadcast and online journalism. YouTube is where the eyes are (right guys???).
Absolutely. People are turning to YouTube for the same reasons they are turning to podcasts and away from mainstream media.
another thing on the nick shirley topic. moynihan claimed that the nick shirley video is what led to the deployment of ICE into minnesota. this is incorrect. operation metro surge began on december 4th. the nick shirley video was december 26th.
Yes! There was some local reporting but none of it was getting picked up nationally.
Most of the local stations have been all over these various fraud schemes for the past couple years. Honestly, I was a little surprised by the sudden national attention and uproar, since it's been a steady news item for so long here.
They've gotten over a dozen convictions already in the "Feeding Our Future" case alone. And with state attorneys resigning over the ICE shenanigans, it's going to cause issues with continuing those cases.
My sister, who lives in Minneapolis, says the Star Tribune has done a good job of covering the scam story.
saying Silence of the Lambs is overrated is worse than any political take ever offered on this show
Throws everything else into question. I can’t Gell-Mann Amnesia my way out of that one.
From other reporting it sounds like the ICE agent in question has been employed for 10 years, so for him “speedy onboarding” concerns are not a good explanation. Still can be true that the current training and onboarding environment have contributed though.
Please stop citing the Obama "deportation" numbers. As a quick Google can show, everyone from Fox to Vox reported at the time that his administration broadened the definition to include people turned away at the border or a port of entry. Since this was specifically intended to be a cynical political strategy, it is always frustrating to hear people falling for the propaganda.
No, those recorded separately, as any chart of the data would show you
No they weren’t. I thought so too, but Obamas deportation numbers were a mirage.
Correct.
“For example, in 2014, Secretary of Homeland Security Jeh Johnson told Congress that figures tied to U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) that indicated a record of deportations under Obama were really not deportations, but quick turn-backs at the border of immigrants detained at or near the boundary line and then sent back to Mexico without a formal deportation process or order.
“Johnson’s statement came during an exchange with lawmakers at a congressional hearing when a Republican queried him on whether the Obama administration was inflating deportation figures.
“‘Under the Obama administration, more than half of those removals that were attributed to ICE are actually a result of Border Patrol arrests that wouldn’t have been counted in prior administrations?’ asked Rep. John Culberson, a Texas Republican, at the March 2014 hearing.
“‘Correct,’ Johnson stated, adding: ‘We are enforcing the law vigorously and effectively, which results in the removal of over 300,000 people a year over the last several years.” Yet, when the 2014 and 2015 Yearbooks came out, there was no correction of removal figures listed in the annual publications and no note attesting to Johnson’s clarification. In fact, the figures listed in the Yearbook are clearly labeled as removals or deportations, not border turn-backs.”
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/immigration/article122715474.html
https://cis.org/Arthur/Assessing-Success-President-Trumps-ICE-Removal-Record
You can tell people facts and they will dispute it because they fundamentally don't believe in enforcing immigration. Everything else is window dressing to get you to back off.
They didn't broaden the terms, there's just no legal distinction for deportation vs turning away at the border, as opposed to removal vs return. They increased the rate of removals (i.e., cases with formal court proceedings) among apprehensions at the border (as opposed to simple returns) but also more closely focused interior removals on criminals. The total number of summary turn-backs at the border dropped because the weak economic recovery reduced the pull to the US for illegal immigrants.
You are 1000% wrong about this and it is depressing/distressing you don't see that.
Most of the increase came from border apprehensions, not interior enforcement. After 2011, interior removals of non-criminal illegal immigrants declined sharply as enforcement priorities were narrowed and broad discretion policies took effect. Programs like DACA and prosecutorial discretion explicitly shielded large categories of people from removal.
Attributing fewer turn-backs to a weak economy ignores policy signals. Border flows respond strongly to enforcement cues, and the Obama administration consistently signaled reduced interior enforcement and selective application of the law, contributing to later surges.
In practice, Obama did not expand enforcement. He constrained it, reclassified outcomes to claim higher numbers, and normalized non-enforcement for large populations.
Also known as “fraud”…something his party seems intimately familiar with…
Hot damn, it's only the three of them! It's been so long that I don't know what to do.
Grab a drink and rejoice. (Coffee mugs work well for that).
It's frustrating that certain facts of the matter can't be established with the MN ICE shooting.
For instance, the officer was not standing directly in front of the car until the driver repositioned.
Now maybe you can fault his tactics for not getting out of the way as she maneuvered, but he didn't violate the policy or the legal standard by intentionally moving in front of a moving vehicle.
I'm still seeing people deny he was touched at all by the car. Or that she was an activist.
Moreover, as a general rule, if you drive towards an officer you're probably gonna get shot and it's probably gonna be ruled to be legal use of force.
If all you knew about the case was "woman drives towards officer while resisting arrest and she was shot and killed" then that's basically a man bites dog outcome for violent police encounters.
Agreed, this is one of those tragic but justified situations from everything I've seen. I wish I were amazed that this has become so politicised and seemingly myopically tribal, but that's been the case with almost every flashpoint event across the Anglosphere (US above all) for at least 12-15 years now.
“we don’t know how long he has been on the force. could be a few hire.”
he was initially reported as a ten year vet an entire week ago. a basic google search shows this fact has been reported by cbs news, nbc news, the guardian, usa today, new york times, ap news, star tribune, and yahoo.
Great episode! I agree that ICE is engaging in tactics that I find awful, but in Target video, you can see the employee take a swing at the agent as they went inside. In this video, you can see it at the 48 second mark. Not that it excuses being dropped off at Walmart...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc_d6O2C4pk
No one deserves to be dropped at a Walmart: cruel and unusual.
Yeah I have this annoying cyclical thought process about ice and the “protestors” they just keep upping the ante on each other.
It's not unreasonable to interpret that movement as a defensive one, especially because if he HAD taken a swing at the officer, he would have been (rightly) arrested and charged with battery upon a law enforcement official.
well no. you have to make contact to commit battery of a law enforcement official.
Good point! I should have used the word "assault."
hey get em next time man!
Make law enforcement professional again. If you are an authority figure, whether that’s a teacher, manager, or in law enforcement, you should be on your best behavior. Being in such a position is both a privilege and a responsibility. When you’re not being serious and thoughtful about how you conduct yourself, you become a liability and squander your own credibility and that of the organization you represent. When you can’t demonstrate a basic understanding and respect for the rule of law and the constitution, you cannot be trusted to professionally uphold it.
You can't have a surge in hiring in any organization without some loss in quality. Just practically impossible. Because federal policy is on a two-to-four year cycle, any major policy shift of this magnitude has to be accomplished quickly, otherwise it's just going to be gearing up when the other party potentially gets into power.
I wish it were otherwise, but your ideals need to account for political exigencies, unless you're willing to bite the bullet and say "hey, in that case I guess we just can't surge particular capabilities which require extremely highly-trained operatives without significant cross-party support over extended periods."
I’m willing to hire that bullet. No voluntary slave should be allowed to even utter a swear word at any citizen without sever penalty. Period. And when I say country slave I only half mean it. If you
Choose public service then choose it for the service. Not for the ability to be a cock.
I think there's a general lack of seriousness in America overall, but that's too deep of a discussion to open up here
Can we get a special episode of Moynihan responding to trolls?
sonny bunch made a really great point on his show that maybe should have been obvious, but it wasn't obvious to me until i heard him say it:
the reactions to minneapolis in the past week are pure eddington.
you have liberal white ladies saying that they have to check their own reaction to the shooting because hey, it was a privileged white lady who was killed and you need to think more about the pocs.
& you have kyle rittenhouse saying 'hey, maybe mpls needs me to cross state lines to help keep things under control.
WE LIVE IN EDDINGTON. REALLY. THIS MOVIE IS GREAT AND PEOPLE WHO DON'T SEE ITS GREATNESS ARE WRONG.
Nick Shirley is dumb, but his claims about MN fraud have stood up so far. I have loads to say about this, but I'll save it. I'll just say that some of us care about the many competing narratives at play in Minnesota.
Has the Quality Learing Center been charged with fraud? I know it’s being investigated but I haven’t heard of any charges.
There is no fraud, but there are very odd circumstances. Also remember that someone in DHS said they were open and operating as they should. This was not good for DHS.
Some have pointed out they were using a questionable service to bus in kids for media spotlights. 2. DHS announced they were closed simultaneously as the media spotlights, 3. They were shut down on 1/6. I suspect they are being investigated, most likely as part of the large federal investigation. We won't hear the results of that for some time. They were not charged with fraud, but they were closed.
Keep in mind Frey was the mayor who was booed off the stage in Minneapolis when he would not commit to defund the police, in the aftermath of George Floyd. Minneapolis is the most progressive city in the midwest. To Matt’s point and Kmele’s question, it’s in Frey’s political best interest to be the “tough guy” with ICE. It would take courage to work to achieve a detente.
“On second thought, lets not go to Minneapolis, ‘tis a silly place…”
(it's only a model...)
Wow this is gonna be a rough episode for some regulars 😂
I feel so seen by your comment :)
they really tapped into my vibe 😂