Was coming here to say the same. Historically, it always seems like Moynihan is very far from his mic, but this one had me frantically dialing the volume up and down.
Moynihan is always quieter, but he was even quieterer in this one. He modulates his voice a lot naturally, though. Makes for tough listening while driving.
I love the pod. I love the guys. (I don't agree with everything they say! - Moynihan's stupid hedge). Don't put out an audio product that is impossible to listen to.
At this point, I think the only thing holding MAGA together is the psychological inability to admit they were wrong about even *one* thing, no matter how small, because it would mean giving the "other side" of the culture war a "W," and by culture war laws, granting one "W" to the other side means they win all the things, somehow.
I have an Epstein-obsessed MAGA friend and I could see his scalp sweating as he was trying to explain to me that the Epstein list is no big deal, and anyway, he's done with politics and is just gonna grill now, they're all liars, etc.
Clearly he doesn't believe this bullshit anymore, but he has sunk so much of his identity into it that he's just stuck. Showing any amount of weakness here would be a confession that he's a rube, and he can't handle the ego death.
And this is a terrible place for a movement to be -- because there's no way out of that psychologically, except to pretend you're not miserable and continue to offer phony celebrations and retarded defenses when dear leader charts another win.
I wish people could just admit they were wrong. Is that really worse than beclowning yourself endlessly with some Fox News host's manufactured talking points?
The wildest part is that in a logical world, they’d be happy to be wrong. It should be a relief that we can’t find any evidence of celebrities and politicians molesting kids en masse, because that would suck if it was true. The conspiracy theorists would rather believe that everyone that we vote for, work for, or who produces media that we consume is a sex predator than be wrong. It’s pretty sad.
This is what it means to have unshakable faith in something. They are absolutely convinced that the pedophile conspiracy is true, so the lack of evidence is seen (and felt) as a lack of justice.
Episodes like this are increasingly a lifeline for me, in a society that seems more divorced from reality than in any time I can remember. And I am past 70. Guess I am living in three worlds. I live in, and am native to, Appalachia. And my neighbors are wonderful folks always there to help, as I am for them, or do my best to. But they are serious MAGA folks. Epstein files and Pizzagate are reality. Then there is the university town 17 miles away, with its microbreweries and farmer's market, where I have friends and much social life. Except that I drink my beer and never talk politics, since they believe crazier stuff each time we meet up. So, I come here, to listen to three guys who are smart, informed, funny, and often passionate, but generally sane. Just what I need. So, thanks, guys.
I agree with almost everything that was said about immigration and deportation. But let's be clear, the left wants violence against ICE, and anyone else who disagrees with them.
The interesting thing is the same can be said about the right. I think Matt mentioned this on the pod a few weeks back, but MAGA was clearly hoping the protests/riots in Los Angeles were going to be worse so they could use it to score political points. It's really sad that politics on both sides of the political spectrum has become this toxic, and I agree with Matt that it may unfortunately only get worse in the near future.
I think the right's reaction was more “Oh god not again” and overreacting a little too quickly in fears of another summer of 2020. You know, that time when Democrat mayors and governors just let their cities burn in mostly peaceful protests. The business owners have insurance, right?
On the other hand, the left has been in the mode of “ICE are the gestapo,” setting up hit squads for immigration enforcement, or telling their representatives they want them to get shot doing acts of civil disobedience. Or, you know, cheering on the murder in broad daylight of a healthcare CEO. But I guess at least that started a conversation…
There are definitely factions of the left that are as you describe, and its important to call it out. But unfortunately there is part of the MAGA base that wants to just use it as a cudgel and encourage violence to combat it ( even if only a small percentage, I would argue still significant enough to matter). I think it would also be good policy for ICE to stop acting like a bunch of masked authoritarian thugs, it just helps feed the outrage and give them reasons to lash out. The Republicans were in a position to implement an immigration policy that a majority of Americans agreed with, and are blowing their opportunity by taking it too far
Matt as usual is correct. We find ourselves in this moment because EVERY SINGLE organization, institution, Media, academia etc has failed colossally. The summer of love was “stay in your home & order everything (those who make & deliver the things to you are expendable, as are the workers who keep your internet going) but congregate en masse to protest”. The Medical field has implicitly or directly told us that people are routinely born in the wrong body (but worry not, they will fix it by amputation of healthy body parts & the creation of lifelong medical patients). The media routinely uses the preferred pronouns of (generally men) criminals. And the leaders of our teaching institutions have incubated insanity to the detriment of our young.
For Matt, Michael and Kmele. Something I am not completely sold on but I think has some valid points. To explain changes in Trumps policy lately, Shapiro has been framing it as “Trump lives in reality”, which I think that is a horrible way to put it because we all accept he does not on many many fronts, but I think the underlying point could potentially be accurate.
You all leaned into TACO - Trump Always Chickens Out. I think that has probably more issues than “Trump lives in reality” but I also see the general point.
Shapiros underlying point is that Trump sticks and moves. He throws something crazy out into the world. Waits to see what happens, and then pivots around what happens to a new position. He “lives in reality” basically boils down to “he responds to new information”.
Why I think it is believable (with flaws) is because like we all think and you three have said 10 billion times, Trump has no real ideology. It is like a random puzzle of incongruous parts scattered across a table. People can try to fit whatever pieces they’d like together to create the image they want to see but the pieces never really fit together that well. With that being the case it gives him flexibility because people have tried for years but can never really pin him down on an idea.
Also why I think it makes some sense. Rolled out huge tariffs, listened to the world panic, has dialed them back. Last thing he wants is the economy to fall apart on his watch.
Rolled out huge immigration plans. Farmers freaked out. He has been trying to dial it back. Doesn’t want to damage his constituency.
Rolled out the most nonsensical plans in Ukraine. Putin started fucking with him and he realized there may be no path there. Adjusted Ukraine policy.
There are many more examples of this.
But if you accept this idea (that he responds to new information and is willing to change his attack) more than TACO, I do not know why you wouldn’t frame it in this more optimistic light. Points you may have, and I also have:
1. Trump still says and does absolutely insane shit and it would be better if he thought through these plans before implementing them because most of the times the problem with them is seen at the outset.
2. Trump does not explain this is what he’s doing and if anything refuses to admit that he changed anything which creates a chaotic environment because no one knows what the hell is going on.
I agree with both of those. But I also somewhat agree with Shapiro that he is seemingly changing his mind/stance on things and doing 180s on topics.
I am from Chicago. I am used to people coming up with absolutely batshit policies and saying crazy shit. You guys are in New York, you’re also used to this. Maybe not to the degree of Trump at all, but I am sure your lives as in mine are full of politicians saying shit that from the outset you think “holy hell this is completely idiotic”. I think what is novel in the Trump situation (if true and accepted) is that he would be willing to change 180 degrees at all. The normal course of action in Chicago is to run your head into a wall on the same policy for decades until all that remains is a bloody mess and you don’t even know what the initial intention of these policies was meant to be. I mean at this point I think Mayor and Governor campaigns are 95% based around the candidate running against issues their party created with the same policies that created the problem to begin with and no one even mentions that is the case. No one says “hey wait…. Haven’t we already been doing this for 30 years? Do we really think the issue for 30 years was not enough funds, not enough people, and not enough attention?”. It’s just let’s ram our head harder this time into the brick wall and maybe we will make it through.
So that being said. Trump drives me fucking insane, I still can’t stand him. However, being able to list multiple items he’s done a complete 180 on POTENTIALLY could be framed in a positive light as equally as it could be framed in a NEGATIVE light of TACO. No other politicians are changing their minds when their policies are shown to be ridiculous and stupid.
I think we all agree in the main that his changes have been in a good direction even if the overall policy is still majorly flawed. Immigration has gone in the right direction even if still drastically flawed. Ukraine good direction. Tariffs overall in a good direction even though tariffs are still inane. Israel/iran good direction. Etc.
Can't wait for Eddington. Re: American Fiction - I enjoyed it but remember thinking it was pulling its punches a bit. I recently saw Hollywood Shuffle for the first time and, damn, that film was way ahead of the game. And much better looking than Spike Lee's Bamboozled.
Michael - have you watched 'Soundtrack to a Coup d'etat' yet?
On immigration - strong agree that this is the LAST administration I’d ever want to handle a challenge like our current immigration situation, but what none of the boys have done (at least not recently) is address WHY we should care at all about their family or their job, etc? There are millions of unemployed Americans, where’s the empathy for those who are competing for work with those who come here in an illegal manner, pack six families into a single family home in the suburbs and manufacture advantage for themselves not through actual competition but through undercutting lawful actors?
I get that the boys are all over employed and are creative and talented enough to have a million projects going on at once, but think about the person who sees this and wonders how they’re going to survive. The frustration about BLM during covid was due in no small part to the rule breakers and rioters getting treated better than folks who just wanted to go to work without having to get a vaccine or ten.
The boys are absolutely correct that this social unrest is all bad, but part of why social trust is low is the hypocrisy and unfairness expressed by those who seem obsessed with “muh farm workers and janitors”
As a veteran of Star Trek: The Unconventional Voyage (a Trekkie cruise as the name suggests) I think as Fifdom Flotilla of high end catamarans that can secede from and rejoin the flotilla at will would better suit the spirit of the show
It was a blast! I got to be an angry southern preacher in an Inherit the Wind knockoff that John DeLancey wrote and sit next to Nana Visitor/do lines with her 😮
Man, the volume differences between mics make this a hard listen.
Came here to make sure I'm not crazy. A leveling pass was absolutely skipped.
Was coming here to say the same. Historically, it always seems like Moynihan is very far from his mic, but this one had me frantically dialing the volume up and down.
This was aggravating trying to listen in the car. Couldn’t hear Moynihan over the car noise.
Yeah he does that thing with his voice where he goes way low, almost a whisper
Moynihan likely drunk again when mastering the final file! Sad. Very disrespectful!
Moynihan is always quieter, but he was even quieterer in this one. He modulates his voice a lot naturally, though. Makes for tough listening while driving.
I love the pod. I love the guys. (I don't agree with everything they say! - Moynihan's stupid hedge). Don't put out an audio product that is impossible to listen to.
Agreed. Tough airplane listening.
At this point, I think the only thing holding MAGA together is the psychological inability to admit they were wrong about even *one* thing, no matter how small, because it would mean giving the "other side" of the culture war a "W," and by culture war laws, granting one "W" to the other side means they win all the things, somehow.
I have an Epstein-obsessed MAGA friend and I could see his scalp sweating as he was trying to explain to me that the Epstein list is no big deal, and anyway, he's done with politics and is just gonna grill now, they're all liars, etc.
Clearly he doesn't believe this bullshit anymore, but he has sunk so much of his identity into it that he's just stuck. Showing any amount of weakness here would be a confession that he's a rube, and he can't handle the ego death.
And this is a terrible place for a movement to be -- because there's no way out of that psychologically, except to pretend you're not miserable and continue to offer phony celebrations and retarded defenses when dear leader charts another win.
I wish people could just admit they were wrong. Is that really worse than beclowning yourself endlessly with some Fox News host's manufactured talking points?
The wildest part is that in a logical world, they’d be happy to be wrong. It should be a relief that we can’t find any evidence of celebrities and politicians molesting kids en masse, because that would suck if it was true. The conspiracy theorists would rather believe that everyone that we vote for, work for, or who produces media that we consume is a sex predator than be wrong. It’s pretty sad.
Yeah, or a relief that we have fewer violent cartel thugs running around than we thought.
Many such cases here.
"Hey we looked into it as promised and we're good!" Case fucking closed.
This is what it means to have unshakable faith in something. They are absolutely convinced that the pedophile conspiracy is true, so the lack of evidence is seen (and felt) as a lack of justice.
Haha. Sad but true. Denial.
Episodes like this are increasingly a lifeline for me, in a society that seems more divorced from reality than in any time I can remember. And I am past 70. Guess I am living in three worlds. I live in, and am native to, Appalachia. And my neighbors are wonderful folks always there to help, as I am for them, or do my best to. But they are serious MAGA folks. Epstein files and Pizzagate are reality. Then there is the university town 17 miles away, with its microbreweries and farmer's market, where I have friends and much social life. Except that I drink my beer and never talk politics, since they believe crazier stuff each time we meet up. So, I come here, to listen to three guys who are smart, informed, funny, and often passionate, but generally sane. Just what I need. So, thanks, guys.
Right on, Bob! I feel you. Feel the same.
I agree with almost everything that was said about immigration and deportation. But let's be clear, the left wants violence against ICE, and anyone else who disagrees with them.
The interesting thing is the same can be said about the right. I think Matt mentioned this on the pod a few weeks back, but MAGA was clearly hoping the protests/riots in Los Angeles were going to be worse so they could use it to score political points. It's really sad that politics on both sides of the political spectrum has become this toxic, and I agree with Matt that it may unfortunately only get worse in the near future.
I think the right's reaction was more “Oh god not again” and overreacting a little too quickly in fears of another summer of 2020. You know, that time when Democrat mayors and governors just let their cities burn in mostly peaceful protests. The business owners have insurance, right?
On the other hand, the left has been in the mode of “ICE are the gestapo,” setting up hit squads for immigration enforcement, or telling their representatives they want them to get shot doing acts of civil disobedience. Or, you know, cheering on the murder in broad daylight of a healthcare CEO. But I guess at least that started a conversation…
There are definitely factions of the left that are as you describe, and its important to call it out. But unfortunately there is part of the MAGA base that wants to just use it as a cudgel and encourage violence to combat it ( even if only a small percentage, I would argue still significant enough to matter). I think it would also be good policy for ICE to stop acting like a bunch of masked authoritarian thugs, it just helps feed the outrage and give them reasons to lash out. The Republicans were in a position to implement an immigration policy that a majority of Americans agreed with, and are blowing their opportunity by taking it too far
Matt as usual is correct. We find ourselves in this moment because EVERY SINGLE organization, institution, Media, academia etc has failed colossally. The summer of love was “stay in your home & order everything (those who make & deliver the things to you are expendable, as are the workers who keep your internet going) but congregate en masse to protest”. The Medical field has implicitly or directly told us that people are routinely born in the wrong body (but worry not, they will fix it by amputation of healthy body parts & the creation of lifelong medical patients). The media routinely uses the preferred pronouns of (generally men) criminals. And the leaders of our teaching institutions have incubated insanity to the detriment of our young.
Yes. You speak the truth.
How’s Spain treating you?
Matt Welch comes to Halifax the week I'm in Newfoundland. Katie Herzog goes to Newfoundland while I'm still in Halifax. Was it something I said?
Yes.
I don't care. I stand by my assertion that Lord Palmerston was better than Pitt, The Elder and that's final.
I’m exhausted by the nothingness of the Epstein case.
For Matt, Michael and Kmele. Something I am not completely sold on but I think has some valid points. To explain changes in Trumps policy lately, Shapiro has been framing it as “Trump lives in reality”, which I think that is a horrible way to put it because we all accept he does not on many many fronts, but I think the underlying point could potentially be accurate.
You all leaned into TACO - Trump Always Chickens Out. I think that has probably more issues than “Trump lives in reality” but I also see the general point.
Shapiros underlying point is that Trump sticks and moves. He throws something crazy out into the world. Waits to see what happens, and then pivots around what happens to a new position. He “lives in reality” basically boils down to “he responds to new information”.
Why I think it is believable (with flaws) is because like we all think and you three have said 10 billion times, Trump has no real ideology. It is like a random puzzle of incongruous parts scattered across a table. People can try to fit whatever pieces they’d like together to create the image they want to see but the pieces never really fit together that well. With that being the case it gives him flexibility because people have tried for years but can never really pin him down on an idea.
Also why I think it makes some sense. Rolled out huge tariffs, listened to the world panic, has dialed them back. Last thing he wants is the economy to fall apart on his watch.
Rolled out huge immigration plans. Farmers freaked out. He has been trying to dial it back. Doesn’t want to damage his constituency.
Rolled out the most nonsensical plans in Ukraine. Putin started fucking with him and he realized there may be no path there. Adjusted Ukraine policy.
There are many more examples of this.
But if you accept this idea (that he responds to new information and is willing to change his attack) more than TACO, I do not know why you wouldn’t frame it in this more optimistic light. Points you may have, and I also have:
1. Trump still says and does absolutely insane shit and it would be better if he thought through these plans before implementing them because most of the times the problem with them is seen at the outset.
2. Trump does not explain this is what he’s doing and if anything refuses to admit that he changed anything which creates a chaotic environment because no one knows what the hell is going on.
I agree with both of those. But I also somewhat agree with Shapiro that he is seemingly changing his mind/stance on things and doing 180s on topics.
I am from Chicago. I am used to people coming up with absolutely batshit policies and saying crazy shit. You guys are in New York, you’re also used to this. Maybe not to the degree of Trump at all, but I am sure your lives as in mine are full of politicians saying shit that from the outset you think “holy hell this is completely idiotic”. I think what is novel in the Trump situation (if true and accepted) is that he would be willing to change 180 degrees at all. The normal course of action in Chicago is to run your head into a wall on the same policy for decades until all that remains is a bloody mess and you don’t even know what the initial intention of these policies was meant to be. I mean at this point I think Mayor and Governor campaigns are 95% based around the candidate running against issues their party created with the same policies that created the problem to begin with and no one even mentions that is the case. No one says “hey wait…. Haven’t we already been doing this for 30 years? Do we really think the issue for 30 years was not enough funds, not enough people, and not enough attention?”. It’s just let’s ram our head harder this time into the brick wall and maybe we will make it through.
So that being said. Trump drives me fucking insane, I still can’t stand him. However, being able to list multiple items he’s done a complete 180 on POTENTIALLY could be framed in a positive light as equally as it could be framed in a NEGATIVE light of TACO. No other politicians are changing their minds when their policies are shown to be ridiculous and stupid.
I think we all agree in the main that his changes have been in a good direction even if the overall policy is still majorly flawed. Immigration has gone in the right direction even if still drastically flawed. Ukraine good direction. Tariffs overall in a good direction even though tariffs are still inane. Israel/iran good direction. Etc.
I’m fine framing that in a good light.
Can't wait for Eddington. Re: American Fiction - I enjoyed it but remember thinking it was pulling its punches a bit. I recently saw Hollywood Shuffle for the first time and, damn, that film was way ahead of the game. And much better looking than Spike Lee's Bamboozled.
Michael - have you watched 'Soundtrack to a Coup d'etat' yet?
Loved American Fiction. Thought it was dead right.
It's one of my favorite movies! Jeffrey Wright was marvelous.
All I had to see was critics fighting about the nuance to get me excited.
On immigration - strong agree that this is the LAST administration I’d ever want to handle a challenge like our current immigration situation, but what none of the boys have done (at least not recently) is address WHY we should care at all about their family or their job, etc? There are millions of unemployed Americans, where’s the empathy for those who are competing for work with those who come here in an illegal manner, pack six families into a single family home in the suburbs and manufacture advantage for themselves not through actual competition but through undercutting lawful actors?
I get that the boys are all over employed and are creative and talented enough to have a million projects going on at once, but think about the person who sees this and wonders how they’re going to survive. The frustration about BLM during covid was due in no small part to the rule breakers and rioters getting treated better than folks who just wanted to go to work without having to get a vaccine or ten.
The boys are absolutely correct that this social unrest is all bad, but part of why social trust is low is the hypocrisy and unfairness expressed by those who seem obsessed with “muh farm workers and janitors”
Here’s all I know about cruises… though I’d still go on one if the 5th crew was hosting
https://www.scribd.com/document/157911921/DFWallace-A-Supposedly-Fun-Thing-I-ll-Never-Do-Again-pdf
A blend of friends of the show and NYC comedians would be amazing for a cruise. Maybe a Dave Matthews cover band to ensure Kmele shows up
this is a classic/wonderful I recommend it all the time, my favorite DFW essay
As a veteran of Star Trek: The Unconventional Voyage (a Trekkie cruise as the name suggests) I think as Fifdom Flotilla of high end catamarans that can secede from and rejoin the flotilla at will would better suit the spirit of the show
My husband and I were considering the Trek cruise this year before I found out I was pregnant. It looks like so much fun!
It was a blast! I got to be an angry southern preacher in an Inherit the Wind knockoff that John DeLancey wrote and sit next to Nana Visitor/do lines with her 😮
Moynihan-“I got three women pregnant…”
Narrator “his sperm donor samples were accidentally matched to the wrong profile.”
Welch, come back to Boston and MA Fifthdom will take you to a Sox game!
And a visit to the oldest baseball field in America; Fuller Field in Clinton, MA. Hosting baseball since 1878
A lot of people out there struggling with rageahol addiction
I CAN'T WAIT to see Eddington. I'm already enjoying people getting angry about this movie.
Plus, I live in New Mexico, and while Eddington is a fictional town... represent.