Former Obama Deputy National Security Advisor and speechwriter Ben Rhodes joins us to talk Iran, sanctions, Reagan, regime change, American decline, and whether America still knows what it wants to be
He seems to recognize the complexity, challenges, and uncertainties of International Relations while being overconfident in his assessment of domestic and economic policies. Even if you don't agree with him on the former, there's a little more epistemic humility.
Many of the negative assessments in the comments here seemed more reactive than reflective. Not shocking in the current environment.
That's exactly right. I went from thinking "He makes some good points" to "He has no idea what he is talking about." I am torn between thinking that (I) this is an example of the Gell-Mann amnesia effect so I should reconsider my reaction to the first 57 minutes, and (ii) my reaction shows it really is possible to evaluate arguments on their strength, rather that an appeal to authority.
I did too. I used to listen to the Pod Save guys a fair bit when they started. They are talented entertainers. It is clear that they don't get challenged on ideas very often. Also bonus points for J Favreau for being one of the early D's to call out the Biden dementia-dismorphia. I think I could turn Mr. Rhodes, he seems pretty practical in terms of world affairs. I appreciated the conversation and I think these three hosts are the bees-fucking-knees. I would be insane without them. They are polite with pushback and operate at a high level. Yeah... I appreciate the conversation.
Ya, I think he even said he changed his mind on Reagan after writing the book. My uncle had me out knocking on doors and handing out flyers for Reagan in 1980. I was 8. Born to be a Reaganite.
I thought this was a great episode! One of my favorite things about TFC is their ability to have enjoyable conversations with people who I'd otherwise find enraging.
(Plus, we learned that Ben Rhodes used to be a Republican!)
i liked it! the billionaire talk made me kinda vomit in disgust, but otherwise he wasn't as noxious as i expected. i'll take him over that young turks woman every time.
'I don't understand tax policy or economics but I have an overconfident certainty that my feelings are empirically correct on these topics' - Ben Rhodes
This is a good example of when you three give a guy enough rope and he does the rest.
I don't know... I just watched the "too much wealth" teaser... Kmele's side-eye, Welch's innocently wise "What if he's created that much value?" (and the patently absurd reply); so far, so good... Then Moynihan's perfectly placed what-aboutism gave me a good belly laugh.
I'll likely weary of this guy when I listen to the whole thing, but I am developing a taste for the way the fellows leave room for guests to reveal their own flaws.
But a straight fun one would also surely be welcome...
Getting him going on taxes was great. Couldn’t even get two sentences in without giving up the ghost on the real animating base of his views. Just pure envy.
1. Raise more revenue
2. Decrease excess wealth.
Decrease excess wealth doesn’t even hint at being a positive to anyone in itself. He’s just saying take what is others for the sake of it. Anyone who doesn’t understand how terrible and powerful that underlying sentiment is is missing a whole lot.
The example of a pet spa is also absurd. Even middle class, lower middle class people in not particularly wealthy countries take their pets to be groomed.
The pet spa is actually a sign that we are a country with wealth spread widely over a very prosperous middle class. Billionaires don't need a pet spa; they can hire a servant to take care of their pets, perhaps even a servant for *each* pet. It is the broad pool of relatively wealthy folks, especially those nearing or in retirement, that allows for these kinds of decadent-seeming businesses to thrive.
Right direction, I think a miss on application. The reason it is absurd and actually a sign of wealth of the entire country is because there are 900-1,100 billionaires in the US. It costs ~$100 to get your dog groomed. Using 1,000 billionaires doing groomings every 3 months (about what I do) that is $400,000 of total revenue. In a city like Chicago (rent wise) that is enough revenue to maybe have 2 operational pet grooming places, factoring rent, supplies, wages, insurance, taxes, and everything other expense.
Yet there are over 10 in the single small neighborhood of Chicago I am in.
Reason it is so absurd is there are tens of thousands of dog grooming establishments across the country and just in 10secs of thought, anyone with a brain would realize it is literally an impossibility that these businesses could exist based on servicing billionaires alone. If something is relatively cheap to do, and is done quite infrequently, you need A TON of people doing it to make a viable business. The second you’re talking about A TON of people doing something, you’re immediately outside of billionaires. Because again there are ~1,000 of them.
Someone who ever opened a lemonade stand as a kid would realize he was an absolute moron. You know selling lemonade you can pick a price and location. The billionaire theory here is like selling a cup for $1, and then choosing your location as the driveway of the one household that lives 10 miles out of town…. Okay, each of the 4 people in the house get a glass…. They’re probably not going to get more… and now you’re 10 miles out of town and have zero other people to sell to. The theory is so insane it beggars belief.
I have to confess I like to think I'm someone with a brain I did *not* zero in on this. In fact I might have missed it because I started yelling at the radio when he responded to Matt's question about how much of the value Elon created Elon should be able to keep and didn't stop until the radio and several passing cars had a thorough understanding of why the theory of surplus value is bullshit.
It really is a despicable bit of misinformation. The rich pay the vast majority of income taxes in this country and the folks who pay little to nothing ought to be grateful for the extremely generous benefits that money provides for.
It gets a bit complicated with payroll tax, but paying payroll tax actually builds wealth for the taxpayer; the typical retiree's social security benefits are equivalent to being given a $400k annuity at retirement.
You end up with a lot of emotions invested in pets, when your other connections are weakened for societal reasons. I see a lot of that among non wealthy, young adults around me. It's an emotionally rewarding purpose. It's a social phenomenon more multi influence complex and nuanced than those looking for evidence for their perspective or ideology are likely to recognize.
That was kind of a dumb retort in the exchange they used for the opening clip. Sure, raise Barack Obama’s taxes, who cares? But his relatively modest wealth doesn’t distort the political system in the same way that someone like Elon Musk or Larry Ellison with thousands of times his net worth does. That is a very meaningful distinction.
As much as people don’t want to listen to Hamas, who will do a better job of exposing the curious and uncertain to the gigantic flaws in the Ben Rhodes worldview than the Fifth boys?
I have faith! This one is for intelligent liberals who live in a bubble. If we can edge a few of those folks in a more liberty oriented, non-groupthink direction, it’ll be a success even if I feel like shoving a pen in my eye every time Hamas speaks.
Also just to say Matt Welch, coffee is actually good for the heart. Not always the anxiety, but look up the health benefits. You’ll stave off non-Moynihan diabetes!
Gave him the benefit of the doubt and really enjoyed and was sympathetic to him for over an hour but then all his talk of consistency disappeared when it became clear that those he likes such as Soros & Son can become phenomenally rich but those he dislikes (who supplied starlink to Ukraine and North Carolina after the tornado, saved the astronauts abandoned in the vacuum of space and pioneered the electric car) should be regulated, presumably the Obamas should continue to receive millions for producing failed self-serving TV shows, but somehow that is VERY different than the Melania documentary????
Rhodes is one of the factors why I stopped listening to anything from Crooked Media a few years back. Can’t take the bleeding heartism and antisemitism apologia. Will give this a listen even though I’ve heard his tired arguments ad nauseam…
I am impressed by how the folks at Crooked Media can embody whichever step listed below they need to in the current moment.
Step 1: It's not really happening
Step 2: Yeah, it's happening, but it's not a big deal
Step 3: It's a good thing, actually
Step 4: People freaking out about it are the real problem
They can move to the next step, go back, or jump around seamlessly. Whichever step they are at in a given podcast episode is where they and Liberals/Progressives have always been.
Really impressed that The Fifth has enough pull to book an Iranian regime official.
Doesn’t Ben have to be in Pakistan for negotiations?
If they are publishing a book, they get booked! With the current guest slate I'm surprised we didn't get to hear from Lindy West during her book tour
That's not completely fair. Hamas might receive most of their funding from Iran, but that doesn't make him an Iranian official.
Well I guess I am alone here, but I appreciated the conversation.
There are dozens of us!
I enjoyed it. I disagree with people on this podcast, often, mostly you guys. And I love this show.
This is the best podcast.
Literally dozens.
Matt, my only complaint is that you're not on every day. Every interview has its pros and cons.
I think he lasted about 57 minutes articulating and defending well a point of view. Interventions, sanctions, all that.
Went off the rails at the “billionaires boo-hoo” point. Completely out of his depth just standing in the shallow end. Laughable.
He seems to recognize the complexity, challenges, and uncertainties of International Relations while being overconfident in his assessment of domestic and economic policies. Even if you don't agree with him on the former, there's a little more epistemic humility.
Many of the negative assessments in the comments here seemed more reactive than reflective. Not shocking in the current environment.
That's exactly right. I went from thinking "He makes some good points" to "He has no idea what he is talking about." I am torn between thinking that (I) this is an example of the Gell-Mann amnesia effect so I should reconsider my reaction to the first 57 minutes, and (ii) my reaction shows it really is possible to evaluate arguments on their strength, rather that an appeal to authority.
I did too. I used to listen to the Pod Save guys a fair bit when they started. They are talented entertainers. It is clear that they don't get challenged on ideas very often. Also bonus points for J Favreau for being one of the early D's to call out the Biden dementia-dismorphia. I think I could turn Mr. Rhodes, he seems pretty practical in terms of world affairs. I appreciated the conversation and I think these three hosts are the bees-fucking-knees. I would be insane without them. They are polite with pushback and operate at a high level. Yeah... I appreciate the conversation.
I did too! I thought his perspective was thoughtful even if I disagree with a lot of what he did when he was in the WH.
I liked it! I mean, he's wrong on a *bunch* of stuff, but he's right on Reagan. That's not nothing.
I wonder if he was right on Reagan while Reagan was president (I wasn't).
On second thought, he was only a small child when Reagan took office.
Ya, I think he even said he changed his mind on Reagan after writing the book. My uncle had me out knocking on doors and handing out flyers for Reagan in 1980. I was 8. Born to be a Reaganite.
I thought this was a great episode! One of my favorite things about TFC is their ability to have enjoyable conversations with people who I'd otherwise find enraging.
(Plus, we learned that Ben Rhodes used to be a Republican!)
It was not a bad conversation, I am just confused by Ben. How can someone who was in a influential position be so naive? Almost infantile.
i liked it! the billionaire talk made me kinda vomit in disgust, but otherwise he wasn't as noxious as i expected. i'll take him over that young turks woman every time.
I appreciate that the guys are always willing to have whoever come on and espouse their true hearts with which to hang themselves with.
I don’t think Rhodes is as intellectually brilliant as he seems to think he is. At least he doesn’t demonstrate it in this interview.
So you’re not alone in appreciating the conversation - but also I don’t think he was that interesting.
'I don't understand tax policy or economics but I have an overconfident certainty that my feelings are empirically correct on these topics' - Ben Rhodes
This is a good example of when you three give a guy enough rope and he does the rest.
Yup… these moments need to be clipped and reposted.
So who's up next week, Hasan Piker?
I’d listen for the sole reason piker would humiliate himself with his idiotic logic
Why not? Although he had a pretty decent interview at PSA the other week.
Shhhhhhh
I don't know... I just watched the "too much wealth" teaser... Kmele's side-eye, Welch's innocently wise "What if he's created that much value?" (and the patently absurd reply); so far, so good... Then Moynihan's perfectly placed what-aboutism gave me a good belly laugh.
I'll likely weary of this guy when I listen to the whole thing, but I am developing a taste for the way the fellows leave room for guests to reveal their own flaws.
But a straight fun one would also surely be welcome...
Yes, an episode of the three of them drinking to excess, again.
We need another, “Toby in the Fields” episode.
His answer (no answer?) to Moyniham's question about the Obamas speaks loudly.
Getting him going on taxes was great. Couldn’t even get two sentences in without giving up the ghost on the real animating base of his views. Just pure envy.
1. Raise more revenue
2. Decrease excess wealth.
Decrease excess wealth doesn’t even hint at being a positive to anyone in itself. He’s just saying take what is others for the sake of it. Anyone who doesn’t understand how terrible and powerful that underlying sentiment is is missing a whole lot.
The example of a pet spa is also absurd. Even middle class, lower middle class people in not particularly wealthy countries take their pets to be groomed.
The pet spa is actually a sign that we are a country with wealth spread widely over a very prosperous middle class. Billionaires don't need a pet spa; they can hire a servant to take care of their pets, perhaps even a servant for *each* pet. It is the broad pool of relatively wealthy folks, especially those nearing or in retirement, that allows for these kinds of decadent-seeming businesses to thrive.
Right direction, I think a miss on application. The reason it is absurd and actually a sign of wealth of the entire country is because there are 900-1,100 billionaires in the US. It costs ~$100 to get your dog groomed. Using 1,000 billionaires doing groomings every 3 months (about what I do) that is $400,000 of total revenue. In a city like Chicago (rent wise) that is enough revenue to maybe have 2 operational pet grooming places, factoring rent, supplies, wages, insurance, taxes, and everything other expense.
Yet there are over 10 in the single small neighborhood of Chicago I am in.
Reason it is so absurd is there are tens of thousands of dog grooming establishments across the country and just in 10secs of thought, anyone with a brain would realize it is literally an impossibility that these businesses could exist based on servicing billionaires alone. If something is relatively cheap to do, and is done quite infrequently, you need A TON of people doing it to make a viable business. The second you’re talking about A TON of people doing something, you’re immediately outside of billionaires. Because again there are ~1,000 of them.
Someone who ever opened a lemonade stand as a kid would realize he was an absolute moron. You know selling lemonade you can pick a price and location. The billionaire theory here is like selling a cup for $1, and then choosing your location as the driveway of the one household that lives 10 miles out of town…. Okay, each of the 4 people in the house get a glass…. They’re probably not going to get more… and now you’re 10 miles out of town and have zero other people to sell to. The theory is so insane it beggars belief.
I have to confess I like to think I'm someone with a brain I did *not* zero in on this. In fact I might have missed it because I started yelling at the radio when he responded to Matt's question about how much of the value Elon created Elon should be able to keep and didn't stop until the radio and several passing cars had a thorough understanding of why the theory of surplus value is bullshit.
I never understand that seething envy.
It really is a despicable bit of misinformation. The rich pay the vast majority of income taxes in this country and the folks who pay little to nothing ought to be grateful for the extremely generous benefits that money provides for.
It gets a bit complicated with payroll tax, but paying payroll tax actually builds wealth for the taxpayer; the typical retiree's social security benefits are equivalent to being given a $400k annuity at retirement.
You end up with a lot of emotions invested in pets, when your other connections are weakened for societal reasons. I see a lot of that among non wealthy, young adults around me. It's an emotionally rewarding purpose. It's a social phenomenon more multi influence complex and nuanced than those looking for evidence for their perspective or ideology are likely to recognize.
He sure was fast to say it’s the Billionaire class after calling out Obama. 😂😂
This guy is clueless of reality. Where does he get his information on what society likes and wants?
Wow.
Great interview as usually boys. Thank you very much for putting in the work.
I’m one of the dozens who liked this interview. It’s fun watching these people trip over their own words.
I’m thankful he’s not fully canned ham here.
That was kind of a dumb retort in the exchange they used for the opening clip. Sure, raise Barack Obama’s taxes, who cares? But his relatively modest wealth doesn’t distort the political system in the same way that someone like Elon Musk or Larry Ellison with thousands of times his net worth does. That is a very meaningful distinction.
As much as people don’t want to listen to Hamas, who will do a better job of exposing the curious and uncertain to the gigantic flaws in the Ben Rhodes worldview than the Fifth boys?
I have faith! This one is for intelligent liberals who live in a bubble. If we can edge a few of those folks in a more liberty oriented, non-groupthink direction, it’ll be a success even if I feel like shoving a pen in my eye every time Hamas speaks.
Also just to say Matt Welch, coffee is actually good for the heart. Not always the anxiety, but look up the health benefits. You’ll stave off non-Moynihan diabetes!
Nah
Gave him the benefit of the doubt and really enjoyed and was sympathetic to him for over an hour but then all his talk of consistency disappeared when it became clear that those he likes such as Soros & Son can become phenomenally rich but those he dislikes (who supplied starlink to Ukraine and North Carolina after the tornado, saved the astronauts abandoned in the vacuum of space and pioneered the electric car) should be regulated, presumably the Obamas should continue to receive millions for producing failed self-serving TV shows, but somehow that is VERY different than the Melania documentary????
Lol, the Obama administration brought capitalism to Cuba, you heard it here first
Oh, I should tell my family whose ration cards give them about 800 calories a day.
I may lack the stamina for 2 hours of Ben Rhodes
I’m apparently the only person who’s never heard of him
I’m tired boss.
Rhodes is one of the factors why I stopped listening to anything from Crooked Media a few years back. Can’t take the bleeding heartism and antisemitism apologia. Will give this a listen even though I’ve heard his tired arguments ad nauseam…
I am impressed by how the folks at Crooked Media can embody whichever step listed below they need to in the current moment.
Step 1: It's not really happening
Step 2: Yeah, it's happening, but it's not a big deal
Step 3: It's a good thing, actually
Step 4: People freaking out about it are the real problem
They can move to the next step, go back, or jump around seamlessly. Whichever step they are at in a given podcast episode is where they and Liberals/Progressives have always been.
They are incorrigible hacks.
Don’t worry, he’s always happy to point out that he has “Jewish heritage”
Moynihan snuck in a great dig sotto voce: “you’ve been dis-Bar Mitvah’d”
He was raised Christian. He is not Jewish.
Jesus was Jewish, therefore all people raised in Christendom have Jewish heritage. That's a freebie for anyone who wants to "as a Jew" about anything!
“Arabs can’t be antisemitic because they’re also semites”
Hey, look, it’s noted foreign policy expe….oh, he’s just a fucking speech writer?
That's not entirely true, though. He was in all the rooms when all the things happened. Why would that not be interesting?
Because he’s not a foreign policy expert… his responses are predictable. It’s NOT exciting (so far).
Oof I’m good