CBS Sunday Morning correspondent and a New York Times bestselling author David Pogue joins the lads to talk Apple, China, AI panic, and whether the company still knows how to invent the future.
I respect Apple, but never liked their walled garden approach. Although, I once got a MacBook at a time when PC laptops had terrible battery life.
These days I'm starting to hate Windows with 11. The computer industry is steering is towards cloud storage/processing subscriptions using disposable dumb terminals with only enough on-board compute for an Internet connection.
I also dislike walled gardens and have tried to keep my applications relatively diverse. After 15 years of MacBook Pros I went to a Dell five years ago mostly for budget reasons and regret it. It's a piece of shit in comparison to Apple products and Windows sucks.
I used to hang out in the UNIX lab in college. I’d write my legal papers on the lonely NeXT cube in the corner. The CS/CE students didn’t like it. But it had TeX, a decent shell where I could read and mail with PINE, fetch stuff off USENET, etc. And the Control key was in the right place.
When I bought a Blue+White PowerMac G3 off eBay in 2002, nerd friends laugh at me. Even more so when I’d have to ssh in to reboot the machine after Finder/DisplayManager had crashed, and sent Mach error messages through the wallpaper.
A lot of the fun stuff from NeXT has been deprecated. But the same is true of the shitty CarbonLib stuff. That program I bought for my girlfriend in 2007 doesn’t run anymore. And?
The Hertzfeld mention is good stuff. Those old Apple stories are still entertaining. I really wonder what a modern Human Resources Professional (TM, OMLC, CAFE) would think.
I was hanging out in the UNIX lab, was the Linux Club, and delivered addresses on forthcoming speech codes, and how they’d play with the new campus judiciary system that conflicted with civil rights laws.
Yes, it sounds absolutely impossible that I’d meet a woman who’d end up marrying me.
I’ll never forget being plopped in front of an HP-UX machine at my first Silicon Valley internship and not knowing what the fuck to do. Then by the end, I couldn’t figure out why anyone on the planet used Window and when I returned to college, I never left the Unix lab. My CAD software for PCB design is Windows only, and the only thing that makes it tolerable Is Git Bash and WSL. My wife grits her teeth whenever she needs help with something on her Mac and I bust open a terminal and ls/cp/mv/cd/vi all over the place…
Loved this episode. I never saw Apple vs PC as a class thing, as much as a consideration of values. PCs were designed for large scale deployment by IT departments or for tinkerers who like to work on their computers in order to achieve specific performance goals (running system intensive games and what not). Where Apple computers are for people appreciate the ecosystem and product design and need to do work that requires a computer but don’t necessarily want to have to work on the computer itself.
I didnt get a computer until mid 90's (27 years old) , I had just moved to Los Angeles in 93 and Entertainment relied heavily on Apple products. Back then there where 3rd party vendors (Umax comes to mind) and settled on a Performa 6400 (Think that was the model #) it was pricey etc... but it did what I needed, 97 Jobs returns and the Blue G3 tower comes and looks like nothing else out there, Umax etc... are told Apple will just make Apple now and the relationship (one of the most difficult of my dopey life) began, No you couldn't go to a store and buy stuff for your Mac, No that external doesn't work on OS, that cable that monitor needs a adaptor, new OS comes out and none of your programs could update (Adobe etc..) at the same time so you NEVER installed the update until months later, then it still might not work and crash on start up... (Watch the extensions load and wait for the one crashes the system to show up Until OS X would this be fixed. That said FF and I have a tote full of every iPod ever made, in their box, every other iPhone in its box (I keep them, I didnt update as often as iPods) iPads etc.. When the iMac with the base and monitor on Stem came out every high end office reception had 2 as you walked up, Few workable programs and no fun like the Windows people had. But we loved it. Genius Bar would treat you like you where at Mercedes to get your car fixed, (once they just gave me a new MacBook Pro instead of fixing mine) it felt 1st class (and cost it) I would watch Apple Events!!FF to Cooke era slowly things get "Eh", dont upgrade like use to, held on to my 2017 iMac 27" as long as I could (2023), New ones not upgradable after purchase (cannot put in memory etc.. anymore) and very pricey at a time when Genius Bar service isnt special anymore, No iPods , no real "Thing" that makes them special except the expense. I never owned a watch, have an Apple Watch 8. I think they are up to 12 now. I no longer care. Every one in LA has iPhone and MacBook still, not for editing and gaming... Nope...just do. Im too old to learn how a Windows machine works so I am stuck. It was fun though. At the time It was like having a beautiful GF, it might not be the best but it stands out and looks great, being this shallow helped a lot. Looked in my tote and looking up at me is the black box for the iPod touch with Macy Gray on the cover.... I really pretty Girl gave me that... Fell out my back pocket on 134 west while riding my motorcycle.
Kmele made a comment in this episode that was interesting but I think a bit misguided re: AI in the classroom and finding ways for students to learn these tools creatively (i.e., not for cheating).
I think this is a little off. I just read Jared Cooney Horvath’s book The Digital Delusion about how tech is ruining education (highly recommend), and he makes the point that the goal of education is not to teach students how to use narrow tools in this way but rather the goal of education is to give students the strong foundational skills to be able to engage with tools like AI. He rightly points out that these tools are ephemeral and while yes, AI is certainly here to stay, there is no way to tell what AI as a tool will look like in 3, 5, 10 years. He also points out that the current generation in the workforce didn’t learn anything about AI (or, for that matter, computers and tech in general) in schools but has been able to adapt to it and learn how to use it because we (mostly) had solid foundational educations that taught us the necessary skills for how to learn new things.
I personally deeply relate to this; I’m a millennial who had a Catholic education where the extent of my learning about digital tools was Mavis Beacon and building a PowerPoint every other year or so, and I readily and easily learned how to use all sorts of tech in my work over the years. Food for thought!
@Megan - Agree 100%. When smartphones were invented 20 years ago many educators were saying 'the important thing is not to ban smartphones from the classroom but to teach children how to use them creatively!' Well, we can see where that got us.
No one needs to be taught to use a smartphone or AI - they are both designed so that the grossest simpleton can use them with ease. They are a menace to education and do not belong in the classroom.
When we first got access to email at my boarding school the first thing I did was forward an offensive joke to a few of my friends. Which actually ended up being the entire school. Admin and all.
I had an in depth discussion about this with a coworker yesterday. We’ve both been using Claude Code, and it’s UNBELIEVABLE as a productivity tool. But, you’ve got to understand how it works and what it’s doing, otherwise you can wind up with a giant mess on your hands. You still need some fundamental understanding of the underlying principles. It’s a lot like a calculator in that sense.
Owning the first Macintosh, I always loved David Pogue’s writing and I have fond memories of reading his massive Mac tome in the mid-nineties, which was full of good humor and great tips. I will definitely read his book. Great to have him on.
Not sure if Kemele reads these comments so maybe Matt should relay this: if he wants to see some real AR glasses, message me. I work on Snapchat spectacles and can demo our latest version from 2024 if he's in LA next😀
I'm not an Apple person so this subject doesn't interest me in the least, but I'm still playing the episode. Makes good background noise while I work, lol.
Matt is not wrong that Mac people thought they were better than you. I got the same feeling, as a child. However, I didn’t hold on to that class resentment. I do hold on to the fact people judge products by the same standards. If you’re going to criticize Windows for something, criticize Mac, if it suffers from the same issue. When I bring this up to Mac people, they get very angry at me, as though I’ve defended Hitler or called their baby ugly. Also, you can admit that Microsoft does certain things well, such as development tools and enterpriser products generally. That said, Apple’s products are really good. Their most cultish fans are what make getting onboard the train most difficult, for me. I sympathize with Matt in that regard.
Honestly, I've always hated Macs, felt they were inferior to Windows. Mac users always have a bit of smugness to them. While I gradually shifted to the iphone, I still hate Macs.
I've got a MacBook air (after a disappointing 6 year Windows dalliance) but can't bloody stand the iPhone UI so stick to Android. Though to be fair Android is a lot more common here in Europoorland so it's much less (negatively) notable to have one than it seems to be there.
Clearly costs to not sticking to one ecosystem, but I like to think I'm somehow sticking a thumb in the eye of some scheming product manager trying to “synchronise my digital footprint” or whatever tech wank speak is currently being used.
Not only did the Mac people have an air of superiority, but Mac products were vastly overpriced relative to PCs. So there was a legitimate class divide as well. I've always hated Apple/Mac products for being part of a closed ecosystem and artificially overpriced due to the fanboy culture.
Putting on my Apple Vision Pro so I can watch this episode in the shower.
Great episode. Really enjoyed Matt ribbing Kmele with the Abby Phillip quips.
Why am I paying for something with ads now? Did I miss an announcement about this or something? Or like I have to update my RSS feed maybe?
We are working on the (quite complicated) tech for exempting paid subscribers from our limited, six-episode ad run.
Actually the ad is funny with you guys doing it. It doesn't bother me at all.
Funny or not, if you pay for a podcast, you shouldn’t have to listen to any ads.
Thank you!
Thank you. It’s at least twice as annoying (insulting?) for NFC payers.
Just saying’
Tim Dillon does that. You guys are almost as smart as he is. Come on, you have the smarts to not have ads for the people who pay.
It's a Substack issue.
I'm currently listening to Isaacson's incredible biography on Steve Jobs, nearly finished. This episode is perfectly timed!
Also completely unsurprised Matt hates Apple, lol.
Just when I thought he couldn't get any cooler.
Update after listening. I didn't expect Matt to hate Apple due to class-rage! Obviously expected that from Moynihan.
I respect Apple, but never liked their walled garden approach. Although, I once got a MacBook at a time when PC laptops had terrible battery life.
These days I'm starting to hate Windows with 11. The computer industry is steering is towards cloud storage/processing subscriptions using disposable dumb terminals with only enough on-board compute for an Internet connection.
I also dislike walled gardens and have tried to keep my applications relatively diverse. After 15 years of MacBook Pros I went to a Dell five years ago mostly for budget reasons and regret it. It's a piece of shit in comparison to Apple products and Windows sucks.
This is fascinating! Thx for unlocking a great Fathers Day gift for my nerd dad (who is IMPOSSIBLE to buy for).
The NeXT acquisition parts are interesting.
I used to hang out in the UNIX lab in college. I’d write my legal papers on the lonely NeXT cube in the corner. The CS/CE students didn’t like it. But it had TeX, a decent shell where I could read and mail with PINE, fetch stuff off USENET, etc. And the Control key was in the right place.
When I bought a Blue+White PowerMac G3 off eBay in 2002, nerd friends laugh at me. Even more so when I’d have to ssh in to reboot the machine after Finder/DisplayManager had crashed, and sent Mach error messages through the wallpaper.
A lot of the fun stuff from NeXT has been deprecated. But the same is true of the shitty CarbonLib stuff. That program I bought for my girlfriend in 2007 doesn’t run anymore. And?
The Hertzfeld mention is good stuff. Those old Apple stories are still entertaining. I really wonder what a modern Human Resources Professional (TM, OMLC, CAFE) would think.
Upon first reading I thought you were saying you were using TeX to make a shell and...well, I might have blacked out for a second or two.
Still, were you actually typesetting legal documents in native TeX? That's kind of masochistic, but I like it.
I was hanging out in the UNIX lab, was the Linux Club, and delivered addresses on forthcoming speech codes, and how they’d play with the new campus judiciary system that conflicted with civil rights laws.
Yes, it sounds absolutely impossible that I’d meet a woman who’d end up marrying me.
I married a woman who listens to me praise the beauty of LaTeX (it's a typesetting language people, get your minds out of the gutter!)
So there's someone for everyone.
I’ll never forget being plopped in front of an HP-UX machine at my first Silicon Valley internship and not knowing what the fuck to do. Then by the end, I couldn’t figure out why anyone on the planet used Window and when I returned to college, I never left the Unix lab. My CAD software for PCB design is Windows only, and the only thing that makes it tolerable Is Git Bash and WSL. My wife grits her teeth whenever she needs help with something on her Mac and I bust open a terminal and ls/cp/mv/cd/vi all over the place…
I was never much of a coder. M-x compile
Debug
C-c C-v
And repeat.
But I did more system stuff. Figuring out how to get OpenFirmware to boot BSD just as if it was a Sparc booting SunOS.
Or the weird DEC stuff.
//Yes, I was a big NetBSD fan
//Is this all there is? Yep. But it’s everything you need
Loved this episode. I never saw Apple vs PC as a class thing, as much as a consideration of values. PCs were designed for large scale deployment by IT departments or for tinkerers who like to work on their computers in order to achieve specific performance goals (running system intensive games and what not). Where Apple computers are for people appreciate the ecosystem and product design and need to do work that requires a computer but don’t necessarily want to have to work on the computer itself.
I didnt get a computer until mid 90's (27 years old) , I had just moved to Los Angeles in 93 and Entertainment relied heavily on Apple products. Back then there where 3rd party vendors (Umax comes to mind) and settled on a Performa 6400 (Think that was the model #) it was pricey etc... but it did what I needed, 97 Jobs returns and the Blue G3 tower comes and looks like nothing else out there, Umax etc... are told Apple will just make Apple now and the relationship (one of the most difficult of my dopey life) began, No you couldn't go to a store and buy stuff for your Mac, No that external doesn't work on OS, that cable that monitor needs a adaptor, new OS comes out and none of your programs could update (Adobe etc..) at the same time so you NEVER installed the update until months later, then it still might not work and crash on start up... (Watch the extensions load and wait for the one crashes the system to show up Until OS X would this be fixed. That said FF and I have a tote full of every iPod ever made, in their box, every other iPhone in its box (I keep them, I didnt update as often as iPods) iPads etc.. When the iMac with the base and monitor on Stem came out every high end office reception had 2 as you walked up, Few workable programs and no fun like the Windows people had. But we loved it. Genius Bar would treat you like you where at Mercedes to get your car fixed, (once they just gave me a new MacBook Pro instead of fixing mine) it felt 1st class (and cost it) I would watch Apple Events!!FF to Cooke era slowly things get "Eh", dont upgrade like use to, held on to my 2017 iMac 27" as long as I could (2023), New ones not upgradable after purchase (cannot put in memory etc.. anymore) and very pricey at a time when Genius Bar service isnt special anymore, No iPods , no real "Thing" that makes them special except the expense. I never owned a watch, have an Apple Watch 8. I think they are up to 12 now. I no longer care. Every one in LA has iPhone and MacBook still, not for editing and gaming... Nope...just do. Im too old to learn how a Windows machine works so I am stuck. It was fun though. At the time It was like having a beautiful GF, it might not be the best but it stands out and looks great, being this shallow helped a lot. Looked in my tote and looking up at me is the black box for the iPod touch with Macy Gray on the cover.... I really pretty Girl gave me that... Fell out my back pocket on 134 west while riding my motorcycle.
Kmele made a comment in this episode that was interesting but I think a bit misguided re: AI in the classroom and finding ways for students to learn these tools creatively (i.e., not for cheating).
I think this is a little off. I just read Jared Cooney Horvath’s book The Digital Delusion about how tech is ruining education (highly recommend), and he makes the point that the goal of education is not to teach students how to use narrow tools in this way but rather the goal of education is to give students the strong foundational skills to be able to engage with tools like AI. He rightly points out that these tools are ephemeral and while yes, AI is certainly here to stay, there is no way to tell what AI as a tool will look like in 3, 5, 10 years. He also points out that the current generation in the workforce didn’t learn anything about AI (or, for that matter, computers and tech in general) in schools but has been able to adapt to it and learn how to use it because we (mostly) had solid foundational educations that taught us the necessary skills for how to learn new things.
I personally deeply relate to this; I’m a millennial who had a Catholic education where the extent of my learning about digital tools was Mavis Beacon and building a PowerPoint every other year or so, and I readily and easily learned how to use all sorts of tech in my work over the years. Food for thought!
@Megan - Agree 100%. When smartphones were invented 20 years ago many educators were saying 'the important thing is not to ban smartphones from the classroom but to teach children how to use them creatively!' Well, we can see where that got us.
No one needs to be taught to use a smartphone or AI - they are both designed so that the grossest simpleton can use them with ease. They are a menace to education and do not belong in the classroom.
When we first got access to email at my boarding school the first thing I did was forward an offensive joke to a few of my friends. Which actually ended up being the entire school. Admin and all.
I had an in depth discussion about this with a coworker yesterday. We’ve both been using Claude Code, and it’s UNBELIEVABLE as a productivity tool. But, you’ve got to understand how it works and what it’s doing, otherwise you can wind up with a giant mess on your hands. You still need some fundamental understanding of the underlying principles. It’s a lot like a calculator in that sense.
Owning the first Macintosh, I always loved David Pogue’s writing and I have fond memories of reading his massive Mac tome in the mid-nineties, which was full of good humor and great tips. I will definitely read his book. Great to have him on.
Very good interview. I'm definitely going to have to read this book.
Not sure if Kemele reads these comments so maybe Matt should relay this: if he wants to see some real AR glasses, message me. I work on Snapchat spectacles and can demo our latest version from 2024 if he's in LA next😀
The only Apple product I've owned was a free Ipad. Found this episode very interesting.
I'm not an Apple person so this subject doesn't interest me in the least, but I'm still playing the episode. Makes good background noise while I work, lol.
Matt is not wrong that Mac people thought they were better than you. I got the same feeling, as a child. However, I didn’t hold on to that class resentment. I do hold on to the fact people judge products by the same standards. If you’re going to criticize Windows for something, criticize Mac, if it suffers from the same issue. When I bring this up to Mac people, they get very angry at me, as though I’ve defended Hitler or called their baby ugly. Also, you can admit that Microsoft does certain things well, such as development tools and enterpriser products generally. That said, Apple’s products are really good. Their most cultish fans are what make getting onboard the train most difficult, for me. I sympathize with Matt in that regard.
Honestly, I've always hated Macs, felt they were inferior to Windows. Mac users always have a bit of smugness to them. While I gradually shifted to the iphone, I still hate Macs.
I've got a MacBook air (after a disappointing 6 year Windows dalliance) but can't bloody stand the iPhone UI so stick to Android. Though to be fair Android is a lot more common here in Europoorland so it's much less (negatively) notable to have one than it seems to be there.
Clearly costs to not sticking to one ecosystem, but I like to think I'm somehow sticking a thumb in the eye of some scheming product manager trying to “synchronise my digital footprint” or whatever tech wank speak is currently being used.
Not only did the Mac people have an air of superiority, but Mac products were vastly overpriced relative to PCs. So there was a legitimate class divide as well. I've always hated Apple/Mac products for being part of a closed ecosystem and artificially overpriced due to the fanboy culture.
Two collars. Very Steve Bannon.